Posted by John on 9/21/2006, 12:59 am, in reply to "Re: OUR WATERWAYS!!" Go ahead, you haven't made a good case so far. That is irrelevant to the docks from Bramley Moore Dock southwards, which are not active commercial docks anymore, and many have World Heritage Status - well there is still minor activity around Bramley Moore and Nelson Docks and even dock sheds in use. I smell troll. He made that up. It is amazing that I recall most of the berths at Brunswick, Harrington and Toxteth docks full in the late 1960s. I used to work for James Troop opposite Brunswick Dock and see these big ships. Yet 4 years later they were mostly closed down, well Brunswick and Coburg were left open until 1975. While smaller Garston Docks, which ships have to sail up a dredged channel much further up river, that costs to keep clear, are still operating today. Rather poor management by MDHB at the time. : Whilst you can About half of the south end docks have been filled in. Read the web site. Herculaneum, Harrington, Toxteth, Kings, Dukes and a part of Queens in the south end docks. Which must account for about half of the waterspace of the south end docks. From Bramley Moore Dock southwards: Trafalgar, Victoria and Clarence Docks have been filled in, with a proposal to fill in West Waterloo. Princes and Princes Half-Tide docks have been reduced in depth to paddling pools, while killing the UNESCO protected marine life. Again a great loss of waterspace. : Even where docks have been filled in, the They wanted to put the Irish ro-ro terminal at Waterloo Dock river wall, but naturally the residents said no, as they were promised a future residential area. The people there have been treated very shabbily. They could have put the ro-ro at virtually any point along the north end Liverpool docks which they are now to do at Langton Dock and then the Twelve Quays will be redundant, and a nice dock filled in for them to generate land and a few more million or six. Totally unecessary to fill in Waallsey Dock as the ro-ro terminal should not have been at Birkenhead in the first place. No. The idea is the City on the Water we were promised. Do you know of that? You don't get that by having a few small business units on infilled docks. Samll business units on infilled docks is also a million miles removed from the former use too. I think your appropriate development is filling in the docks with shed warehouse leisure places on top - and out of place stadiums. Dock infilling is not inevitable at all. When building the the City on the Water, keeping water spaces is a great advantage. Those who want docks and water spaces filled in are money sharks. : but if it gives us a great We should say NO to any dock infilling. There is just no need for it. What goes on, in the active commercial sector is very different to Bramley Moore Dock southwards. You obviously want to fill in every dock you see. No one can be that silly. No one can be so blind to the obvious. Who pays your wages?
--Previous Message--
: I think it is great that John has developed
: this site as an indication of the strong
: feelings that people from Liverpool and
: elsewhere have about our dock system and its
: importance to the identity of the city.
:
: I don't always see eye to eye with John on
: some issues as I believe that there is
: another side to this argument that needs to
: be presented as well.
: First of all, Liverpools dock system has
: always been in a state of change. Just look
: at old maps and see how the docks that we
: have today looked when first built. This
: process has been going on for some 200
: years. Herman Melville, author of Moby Dick
: was amazed to discover that the Old Dock,
: one of the wonders of the port in his
: father's time, had been filled in by the
: time of his visit in the 1840s.
:
: The docks and dockers are not just history.
: Liverpool is still a major and expanding
: port which has migrated up the river over
: the course of the last century. Proposals
: are at an advanced stage to build facilities
: for post-Panamax vessels that will increase
: the capacity of the port for container
: vessels no end.
: The South Docks were largely obsolete by the
: early 20c and it is amazing that we have so
: many still in existence.
: argue about some of the development built
: around these docks, the fact that Albert and
: its surrounding docks is now a major
: heritage attraction, Queens has a
: watersports centre, Coburg and Brunswick are
: marinas and Princes is the centre of one of
: the biggest development sites in the city
: gives the lie to the idea that the dock
: system has been allowed to go to rack and
: ruin.
Some city on the water this is going to be! More like a village on the water with a village pond.
: argument is by no means clear cut. One of
: the recent major developments on the river
: was the Twelve Quays terminal on the
: Birkenhead shore. Whilst this went a long
: way to enabling the Port of Liverpool to
: retain and expand its Irish trade, it did
: require the infilling of the 19c. Wallasey
: Dock to provide a lorry park. Not very
: attractive but doing something the Port of
: Liverpool has always done, remodelling its
: infrastructure to meet the demands of new
: markets.
: Another example is Toxteth and Harrington
: Docks infilled in the 80s to form the
: Brunswick Business Park. Again not that
: attractive but providing employment for
: ex-dockers and the sons and daughters of
: ex-dockers. In that respect, it could be
: argued that this is a more appropriate use
: of the docks than Albert which may be
: picturesque but with its yuppie flats,
: trendy bars, museums and modern art gallery
: is a million miles removed from its former
: use.
: I'm looking forward to the proposals for
: Central Docks. The disused docks there may
: be of great historic value but without
: appropriate development will be of neither
: use nor ornament.
: Changing use from part of a working port to
: a totally different commercial, residential
: or leisure use is bound to involve
: compromises and, probably some dock
: infilling
: development that we can all be proud of and
: which respects the history of the area, we
: should not be too inflexible in our attitude
: to that.
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