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Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by Geoff Diggines on February 6, 2019, 1:37 pm There are many conundrums in classical music, I have just been listening to Mitsuko Uchida's lack of rapport with Simon Rattle in her latest recording of the Beethoven Piano Concerto's. Uchida, predictably, is in splendid form, but Rattle's phrasing is lumpy, with plenty of distorting rubato - poor Uchida wants to move on, her phrasing and rhythms are mercurial and crisp, the opposite of Rattle. Why did she consent to this??? But I want to move on to a conundrum that has bothered me for some time. Klemperer was a great conductor, his Bruckner was especially distinctive, with a granitic hold the music's structure, its contour and shape. At the end of his conducting career he made huge cuts in his recording, and concerts Bruckner's 8th, last movement. I am not automatically against cuts; the cut Toscanini made in Tchaikovsky's Manfred symphony last movement' it could be argued' is an improvement, also the composer loathed the movement. But the cuts Klemperer made in the Bruckner are much more damaging. He cuts the massive C minor fff chord just before the mysterious beginning of the coda proper. This cut ruins the whole logic of the symphony which had been building up to this massive raw C minor chord from the beginning, its final release of a blazing C minor. There is a recording ( hard to get hold of) of Klemperer's Bruckner 8 from the Festival hall in 1964 with the Phiharmonia in the full Hass edition, and it is over-whelming, the greatest I have heard, but it was never recorded by EMI. Was this terrible cut just the work of an eccentric old man???. He wrote in programme note that 'Bruckner went too far in his musical invention'. But he regularly conducted the 5th Symphony, right up to the end of his conducting career, which is arguably more complex and long, with more musical invention than the 8th!. I suppose it will remain another, rather painful, classical music conundrum???

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by Marc on February 6, 2019, 8:48 pm, in reply to "Klemperer/Bruckner" Cuts to Bruckner's 8th are all too commonplace from conductors who should know better. William Steinberg didn't only use the Schalk edition but he also made cuts in the final movement (at least he does in Boston in 1962). The worst performance I know is by Koussevitsky - again with the Boston Symphony - who cuts the work down to just over 50 minutes - though I believe this might have been because it was being broadcast over the radio and they only had an hour time slot (something which the BBC have been known to do - it happened with a Zubin Mehta Bavarian RSO Bruckner 9 which was cut in the last movement). The Klemperer cuts are, as you say, damaging. They amount in total to something close to 250 bars of music in two separate parts of the score - but given the timing he manages with the cuts (and bearing in mind his second movement is the most lugubrious on record) the mind boggles at what the length of this studio Bruckner 8th would have been uncut. I'll stick with the 1964 Philharmonia live one too.

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by dieter barkhoff on February 6, 2019, 11:13 pm, in reply to "Klemperer/Bruckner" Great question, Geoff. Is it possible to find the Festival Hall recording you mention? Klemperer, along with Furtwangler, was my first great conduction 'hero'. There is a Cologne performance able to be heard on Spotify. I'll listen to it today, I have a long drive...

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by dieter barkhoff on February 7, 2019, 9:37 am, in reply to "Re: Klemperer/Bruckner" The Cologne performance - 1957 - is cut too: I listened to it today.

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by dieter barkhoff on February 10, 2019, 12:02 am, in reply to "Re: Klemperer/Bruckner" Thankyou, Geoff Diggines for pointing out the Cologne version isn't cut. I listened to it while on a long drive and in the last movement - where the notorious cuts occur in the EMI recording - I imagined an abrupt change of direction in the music, almost a 'non-sequitor' if you like, and I assumed this was the cut. I'll listen to it again.

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by Marc on February 7, 2019, 11:41 am, in reply to "Klemperer/Bruckner" There might be a date and orchestra issue with the 1964 performance which I had forgotten to mention. Lotte Klemperer mentions in her diary that Klemperer actually performed the Bruckner Seventh on 2nd February 1964, not the 8th with the Philharmonia. This is also the only Haas version of the 8th that Klemperer seems to have performed - not in itself odd given that some conductors seem to have performed both Haas and Nowak versions of this symphony but it is unusual nevertheless. This supposed Philharmonia 1964 8th has appeared on both Rare Moth and Archiphon and has a timing of 81 minutes which is identical to a BBCSO 8th from 1959. It is more than likely to be that one.

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by Geoff Diggines on February 8, 2019, 11:52 am, in reply to "Re: Klemperer/Bruckner" The 1964 Feb 2nd of the Bruckner 8 was certainly the Philharmonia; I was there! Also the original Philharmonia played at the time palpably with more finesse and unity than the then BBC SO, which I have not heard, but it would have been the Hass edtion. Lotte was devoted to her father, and mother, but she often got dates wrong... read the CD booklet in the DG Boulez recording of the 8th (Hass) with the VPO were she gets confused re the 8th which Boulez attended, and the 5th, which he does not remember. I have the Radio 3 original recording which is far superior in sound quality (but not in stereo) to the 'Rare Moth' edition.I have not heard the Archiphon edition. I would certainly like to hear the BBC SO recording of the 8th; is it available on any of the unofficial editions?? The 1957 Cologne performance is on several editions now and is readily available. The recording quality is good, and the performance is splendid, Klemperer keeps things moving, but it never sounds rushed, and it has an elemental power in the best Klemperer tradition. It is not cut, as suggested by one contributor, and deploys the Novak edition, which I prefer. Perhaps the 1964 8th will turn up soon in good stereo where Klemperer's antiphonal placing of the first and second violins can be heard to there full and essential effect.

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by Geoff Diggines on February 9, 2019, 11:14 am, in reply to "Re: Klemperer/Bruckner" For some reason my first message re the 59 BBC Klemperer Bruckner 8 has appeared twice.In the first version I stated that it would have been the Hass Editionn. This was a mistake, I have no idea of the version used. This is rectified in the second copy of the review where I have edited this out.

Re: Klemperer/Bruckner Posted by Geoff Diggines on February 8, 2019, 12:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Klemperer/Bruckner" The 1964 Feb 2nd of the Bruckner 8 was certainly the Philharmonia; I was there! Also the original Philharmonia played at the time palpably with more finesse and unity than the then BBC SO, which I have not heard. Lotte was devoted to her father, and mother, but she often got dates wrong... read the CD booklet in the DG Boulez recording of the 8th (Hass) with the VPO were she gets confused re the 8th which Boulez attended, and the 5th, which he does not remember. I have the Radio 3 original recording which is far superior in sound quality (but not in stereo) to the 'Rare Moth' edition.I have not heard the Archiphon edition. I would certainly like to hear the BBC SO recording of the 8th; is it available on any of the unofficial editions?? The 1957 Cologne performance is on several editions now and is readily available. The recording quality is good, and the performance is splendid, Klemperer keeps things moving, but it never sounds rushed, and it has an elemental power in the best Klemperer tradition. It is not cut, as suggested by one contributor, and deploys the Novak edition, which I prefer. Perhaps the 1964 8th will turn up soon in good stereo where Klemperer's antiphonal placing of the first and second violins can be heard to there full and essential effect.

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