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Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 16, 2020, 2:03 am
After my last post re Under-rated masterpieces, I thought about the notion of Blind Spots. I had an experience with my writing which clarified my understanding of this concept. I had received an email from someone who could not see the point of reading further into the story I consider the best thing I've written. I understood that what he was getting at was to do with the notion of sensibilities. I mentioned to him that my wife loves the works of Gerald Murnane, Proust and Musil. I cannot read more than a page, in Murnane's case more than five sentences, without feeling bored and 'lost'. The writers I feel attuned to include Dostoevesky, Raymond Carver, Tobias Wolff, John Cheever, Alice Munro, if you get my drift. I mentioned a close friend who is a painter. He was invited to a Schoenberg Conference in Canada about ten years ago because he had incorporated Scoenberg into one of his paintings. My friend loves Schoenberg's music, he hates Anton Bruckner's music. I have every work Schoenberg wrote in my collection and hate every second of his music. I just don't 'get it'. I love Bruckner almost more than any other composer. My dislike of Schoenberg has nothing to do with atonality etc, because I love Webern and Berg. There is just something in Schoenberg that just grates on me. The early super-chromatic works are like being fed a diet of whipped cream and the later works sound clinical and come from a place I associate with the area called The Head: I love music, and writing, which comes from The Heart. Thus my Musical Blind Spots:
Schoenberg: music from the wrong place. Milhaud: flippy floppy stuff. Mendelssohn: busy, busy, busy. Where's your soul, man? Elgar's Dream of Gerontius: God spare me these kinds of dreams: I wish Gerontius permanent insomnia. Philip Glass:Much of his music reminds me of the Stuck Record syndrome associated with faulty LP's, the same syndrome when CDS get stuck. Rossini: Momma mia, a kind of perpetual inevitabity about much of his music, I do like some of his piano music, and the Petite Mass. Liszt: much of his music is pyrotechnical and musically vapid. There are magnificent exceptions, but most of his music leaves me cold and shivering. Messiaen: Perfect 'nothing' music for me. Mahler: Symphony 8. Full of sound and fury. Shostakovich: Symphony 7. Significant that the conductor I despise most - Toscanini conducted the Premiere. This music is the definition of kitsch.
Musicians who I don't understand, or 'get':
The conductors Toscanini, Solti, Mravinsky for reasons to do with bull at the gate, rhino in a china shop approach. Rattle: I just shake my head every time I hear anything conducted by this charming man. Though I do like something about his Bruckner 9. Pollini, Heifetz: digital perfection, where's the soul? My Pollini antidote is Arrau. My Heifetz antidote is Szigeti. Karajan: the original Mantovani. ( Though every now and then, something I hear knocks my socks off. Which is not a pretty sight, most have holes.)
I've probably bored the pants off one and all by now, so I'll leave it at that.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Nick Barnard on October 16, 2020, 8:40 am, in reply to "Blind Spots"
Dieter - Great Post - it made me chuckle! Genuinely I love your descriptions of the music & performers that cause you such pain. I also disagree with just about everything you write. I am definitely going to steal "flippy-floppy stuff" as a pejorative - just not about Milhaud!
Mendelssohn no soul!!! - I demand satisfaction metaphorical pistols at dawn Sir...
Posts like this are really excellent - good humouredly stirring the pot of artistic indignation. I'm off to listen to some Rossini (& possibly DSCH 7) with my morning tea and toast.....
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 16, 2020, 10:14 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Great reply. I make these posts with a chuckle on my tongue. And, just because he wrote that horrid, turgid Elijah doesn't qualify him for a soul. Though I must admit, I don't mind Paulus, which is quite ironic because, now there for sure, was a man with no soul!
Previous Message
Dieter - Great Post - it made me chuckle! Genuinely I love your descriptions of the music & performers that cause you such pain. I also disagree with just about everything you write. I am definitely going to steal "flippy-floppy stuff" as a pejorative - just not about Milhaud!
Mendelssohn no soul!!! - I demand satisfaction metaphorical pistols at dawn Sir...
Posts like this are really excellent - good humouredly stirring the pot of artistic indignation. I'm off to listen to some Rossini (& possibly DSCH 7) with my morning tea and toast.....
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 16, 2020, 10:18 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
I forgot to ask your weapon of choice, plus your second. We are under huge restriction in Melbourne, we have a Premier who wants to save our lives at the expense of business - a socialist but I love him - and the twain of meetings may never coincide.
Previous Message
Dieter - Great Post - it made me chuckle! Genuinely I love your descriptions of the music & performers that cause you such pain. I also disagree with just about everything you write. I am definitely going to steal "flippy-floppy stuff" as a pejorative - just not about Milhaud!
Mendelssohn no soul!!! - I demand satisfaction metaphorical pistols at dawn Sir...
Posts like this are really excellent - good humouredly stirring the pot of artistic indignation. I'm off to listen to some Rossini (& possibly DSCH 7) with my morning tea and toast.....
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Nick Barnard on October 16, 2020, 3:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
It will have to be pistols. As least that way we can keep socially distanced while we kill each other (perhaps with some transfiguring Messiaen playing in the background....?)
Previous Message
I forgot to ask your weapon of choice, plus your second. We are under huge restriction in Melbourne, we have a Premier who wants to save our lives at the expense of business - a socialist but I love him - and the twain of meetings may never coincide.
Previous Message
Dieter - Great Post - it made me chuckle! Genuinely I love your descriptions of the music & performers that cause you such pain. I also disagree with just about everything you write. I am definitely going to steal "flippy-floppy stuff" as a pejorative - just not about Milhaud!
Mendelssohn no soul!!! - I demand satisfaction metaphorical pistols at dawn Sir...
Posts like this are really excellent - good humouredly stirring the pot of artistic indignation. I'm off to listen to some Rossini (& possibly DSCH 7) with my morning tea and toast.....
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Ralph Moore on October 16, 2020, 12:45 pm, in reply to "Blind Spots"
Dieter, the thing about publicly declaring one's blind spots and prejudices is that usually arouses the ire of some devotee of the music you have excoriated; for some reason, to many people merely voicing such opinions is tantamount to defiling their grandmother. For instance, like Nick, I simply love some of your pet hates - early Schoenberg, Gerontius, Mendelssohn, Toscanini - and am baffled by your aversion to them, but completely share your dislike of Liszt and Messiaen. I would add to my list (Liszt?) of loathing anything by Britten, Bartok's string quartets, everything Bax wrote except perhaps Tintagel, Wolff's and Brahms' songs, and most of that airy-fairy British folk-song stuff - and so it goes.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 17, 2020, 1:02 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Very Interesting. I agree entirely about Bax - I wasted a whole half an hour dipping into his Symphonies, a whole half hour I'll never be able to reclaim, and have a sneaking admiration for your evaluation of Bartok's Quartets, but will defend the honor of Wolf and Brahms Lieder to my last, Sir. And, I have a confession to make: Elgar's Land of Hope and Glory makes my blood turn cold! I have a similar problem with Haydn's Emperor Quartet.
Previous Message
Dieter, the thing about publicly declaring one's blind spots and prejudices is that usually arouses the ire of some devotee of the music you have excoriated; for some reason, to many people merely voicing such opinions is tantamount to defiling their grandmother. For instance, like Nick, I simply love some of your pet hates - early Schoenberg, Gerontius, Mendelssohn, Toscanini - and am baffled by your aversion to them, but completely share your dislike of Liszt and Messiaen. I would add to my list (Liszt?) of loathing anything by Britten, Bartok's string quartets, everything Bax wrote except perhaps Tintagel, Wolff's and Brahms' songs, and most of that airy-fairy British folk-song stuff - and so it goes.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Marc Bridle on October 17, 2020, 2:40 am, in reply to "Blind Spots"
The 'china shop' conductors are quite funny. Solti, of course, broke everything he conducted. And when there are that many bits you just sweep them up and put them in the bin.
Toscanini I disliked for many years until I heard him conduct Parsifal extracts with the BBCSO (obviously not live). It threw me. A lot of people dislike it; I love it. Far from a bull in a china shop it's the equivalent of watching grass grow or a very slow game of snooker. Or, a slow, slow burn. But it's also just beautiful. Generally, a lot of his Wagner is like that and it's wonderful. If I'd been born in 1887 I'd have heard his Parsifal at Bayreuth.
Mravinsky I can definitely live with. No one wants dull Shostakovich or Prokofiev; the more shattered it is the better. And listening to his rehearsals of some Shostakovich is terrifying. You don't need to understand Russian to know what is happening here.
Heifetz. When I was studying violin he was in many ways my idol (which young, teenage student doesn't want to play like Heifetz?). But, over the years I have come to dislike his recordings for much the reason you describe. His solo Bach is particularly cold. Give me Ferras, Oistrakh, Milstein, or Kogan any time. I just wish I knew these great violinists at 12 and I might have sounded better.
Pollini - just listen to his Boulez or Stockhausen. You just can't tell if it's perfect or not.
Karajan. The studio wasn't always kind to him. The concert hall was. There are, I am happy to say, many live recordings which prove Karajan was a firebrand conductor - and perfection wasn't a guarantee at some of his concerts. I saw him conduct some Berg and at the end thought he needed a doctor.
So, I do agree with most of what you write - but there is an alternative position to take. Rattle - well.......
Previous Message
After my last post re Under-rated masterpieces, I thought about the notion of Blind Spots. I had an experience with my writing which clarified my understanding of this concept. I had received an email from someone who could not see the point of reading further into the story I consider the best thing I've written. I understood that what he was getting at was to do with the notion of sensibilities. I mentioned to him that my wife loves the works of Gerald Murnane, Proust and Musil. I cannot read more than a page, in Murnane's case more than five sentences, without feeling bored and 'lost'. The writers I feel attuned to include Dostoevesky, Raymond Carver, Tobias Wolff, John Cheever, Alice Munro, if you get my drift. I mentioned a close friend who is a painter. He was invited to a Schoenberg Conference in Canada about ten years ago because he had incorporated Scoenberg into one of his paintings. My friend loves Schoenberg's music, he hates Anton Bruckner's music. I have every work Schoenberg wrote in my collection and hate every second of his music. I just don't 'get it'. I love Bruckner almost more than any other composer. My dislike of Schoenberg has nothing to do with atonality etc, because I love Webern and Berg. There is just something in Schoenberg that just grates on me. The early super-chromatic works are like being fed a diet of whipped cream and the later works sound clinical and come from a place I associate with the area called The Head: I love music, and writing, which comes from The Heart. Thus my Musical Blind Spots:
Schoenberg: music from the wrong place. Milhaud: flippy floppy stuff. Mendelssohn: busy, busy, busy. Where's your soul, man? Elgar's Dream of Gerontius: God spare me these kinds of dreams: I wish Gerontius permanent insomnia. Philip Glass:Much of his music reminds me of the Stuck Record syndrome associated with faulty LP's, the same syndrome when CDS get stuck. Rossini: Momma mia, a kind of perpetual inevitabity about much of his music, I do like some of his piano music, and the Petite Mass. Liszt: much of his music is pyrotechnical and musically vapid. There are magnificent exceptions, but most of his music leaves me cold and shivering. Messiaen: Perfect 'nothing' music for me. Mahler: Symphony 8. Full of sound and fury. Shostakovich: Symphony 7. Significant that the conductor I despise most - Toscanini conducted the Premiere. This music is the definition of kitsch.
Musicians who I don't understand, or 'get':
The conductors Toscanini, Solti, Mravinsky for reasons to do with bull at the gate, rhino in a china shop approach. Rattle: I just shake my head every time I hear anything conducted by this charming man. Though I do like something about his Bruckner 9. Pollini, Heifetz: digital perfection, where's the soul? My Pollini antidote is Arrau. My Heifetz antidote is Szigeti. Karajan: the original Mantovani. ( Though every now and then, something I hear knocks my socks off. Which is not a pretty sight, most have holes.)
I've probably bored the pants off one and all by now, so I'll leave it at that.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 17, 2020, 4:52 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Love your reply. I love Kogan, Oistrakh and Milstein as well. Part of the reason, I admit, that I dislike the big Tosca is because of his sanctimonious disparagment of Furtwangler. Having said that, I knew nothing about that when I decided that everything I heard him do had a kind of freneticism about it. My introduction to classical music was mainly via the cheaper labels, especially Supraphon. Then along came the mighty Otto KLemp and after him I was always going to find it hard to adjust to conductors like Toscanini and Solti. Mravinsky is an interesting case for me. When his recordings and CDs became available in the 70's and late 80's I collected quite a few: the mighty Mravinsky, I thought, why not? I recall the first time I scratched my head and wondered. It was Bruckner's 9th Symphony. I had a mere five recordings of this work in my collection at that stage - I now have 55. I spent an afternoon comparing them. I had Furtwangler, Klemperer, Jochum Desden, Von Matacic and Mravinsky. The knock-out performance was Jochum's. Furtwangler's was also fantastic but the recording was relatively ancient. I loved the intensity of Klemperer but it lacked Jochum's litheness. Von Matacic was good, the good ole Czech Phil, but it lacked Jochum and Furtwangler's intensity. Mravinsky was simply fast and brutal. And apart from Dawn on the Moscow River from Mussorgski's Konvanchina, which is one of the most stunning things I've encountered - every time I went back to Mravisnky I sensed a manic attack very similar to Toscanini. My main witness for the charge of brutality is his horrible Shostakovich 15. Arg, the horror, the horror. Finally, I will listen to Tosca's Parsifal: now there is a great piece of music.
Previous Message
The 'china shop' conductors are quite funny. Solti, of course, broke everything he conducted. And when there are that many bits you just sweep them up and put them in the bin.
Toscanini I disliked for many years until I heard him conduct Parsifal extracts with the BBCSO (obviously not live). It threw me. A lot of people dislike it; I love it. Far from a bull in a china shop it's the equivalent of watching grass grow or a very slow game of snooker. Or, a slow, slow burn. But it's also just beautiful. Generally, a lot of his Wagner is like that and it's wonderful. If I'd been born in 1887 I'd have heard his Parsifal at Bayreuth.
Mravinsky I can definitely live with. No one wants dull Shostakovich or Prokofiev; the more shattered it is the better. And listening to his rehearsals of some Shostakovich is terrifying. You don't need to understand Russian to know what is happening here.
Heifetz. When I was studying violin he was in many ways my idol (which young, teenage student doesn't want to play like Heifetz?). But, over the years I have come to dislike his recordings for much the reason you describe. His solo Bach is particularly cold. Give me Ferras, Oistrakh, Milstein, or Kogan any time. I just wish I knew these great violinists at 12 and I might have sounded better.
Pollini - just listen to his Boulez or Stockhausen. You just can't tell if it's perfect or not.
Karajan. The studio wasn't always kind to him. The concert hall was. There are, I am happy to say, many live recordings which prove Karajan was a firebrand conductor - and perfection wasn't a guarantee at some of his concerts. I saw him conduct some Berg and at the end thought he needed a doctor.
So, I do agree with most of what you write - but there is an alternative position to take. Rattle - well.......
Previous Message
After my last post re Under-rated masterpieces, I thought about the notion of Blind Spots. I had an experience with my writing which clarified my understanding of this concept. I had received an email from someone who could not see the point of reading further into the story I consider the best thing I've written. I understood that what he was getting at was to do with the notion of sensibilities. I mentioned to him that my wife loves the works of Gerald Murnane, Proust and Musil. I cannot read more than a page, in Murnane's case more than five sentences, without feeling bored and 'lost'. The writers I feel attuned to include Dostoevesky, Raymond Carver, Tobias Wolff, John Cheever, Alice Munro, if you get my drift. I mentioned a close friend who is a painter. He was invited to a Schoenberg Conference in Canada about ten years ago because he had incorporated Scoenberg into one of his paintings. My friend loves Schoenberg's music, he hates Anton Bruckner's music. I have every work Schoenberg wrote in my collection and hate every second of his music. I just don't 'get it'. I love Bruckner almost more than any other composer. My dislike of Schoenberg has nothing to do with atonality etc, because I love Webern and Berg. There is just something in Schoenberg that just grates on me. The early super-chromatic works are like being fed a diet of whipped cream and the later works sound clinical and come from a place I associate with the area called The Head: I love music, and writing, which comes from The Heart. Thus my Musical Blind Spots:
Schoenberg: music from the wrong place. Milhaud: flippy floppy stuff. Mendelssohn: busy, busy, busy. Where's your soul, man? Elgar's Dream of Gerontius: God spare me these kinds of dreams: I wish Gerontius permanent insomnia. Philip Glass:Much of his music reminds me of the Stuck Record syndrome associated with faulty LP's, the same syndrome when CDS get stuck. Rossini: Momma mia, a kind of perpetual inevitabity about much of his music, I do like some of his piano music, and the Petite Mass. Liszt: much of his music is pyrotechnical and musically vapid. There are magnificent exceptions, but most of his music leaves me cold and shivering. Messiaen: Perfect 'nothing' music for me. Mahler: Symphony 8. Full of sound and fury. Shostakovich: Symphony 7. Significant that the conductor I despise most - Toscanini conducted the Premiere. This music is the definition of kitsch.
Musicians who I don't understand, or 'get':
The conductors Toscanini, Solti, Mravinsky for reasons to do with bull at the gate, rhino in a china shop approach. Rattle: I just shake my head every time I hear anything conducted by this charming man. Though I do like something about his Bruckner 9. Pollini, Heifetz: digital perfection, where's the soul? My Pollini antidote is Arrau. My Heifetz antidote is Szigeti. Karajan: the original Mantovani. ( Though every now and then, something I hear knocks my socks off. Which is not a pretty sight, most have holes.)
I've probably bored the pants off one and all by now, so I'll leave it at that.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Rob McKenzie on October 20, 2020, 8:25 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Dieter, if you found the Jochum/Dresden Bruckner 9th a knockout, you'd likely get a double-knockout from his 1954 DG mono account - called 'visionary' by the Ad men and, for once, without exaggeration. (This is not his later stereo account which is the one included in his DG complete set of the Bruckner symphonies). Apologies if I've said this before!
I share your admiration for old Klemp. I first heard him via a second-hand LP copy of his EMI recording of Beethoven's Second Symphony and thought the orchestral sound was exactly what the composer was meant to sound like. I was 'hooked'.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Mike Parr on October 17, 2020, 12:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
I enjoyed reading your list of "blind spots" Regarding von Karajan as the original Mantovani your comment reminded me of a review comment I saw many years ago in reference to his first recording of Die Zauberflote for EMI. It went something like "Karajan conducts Zauberflote as if it is the Merry Widow". I thought it rather insulting to Lehar. The writer had a point though, that first Zauberflote made Mozart sound like baby food compared to any other recording. Perhaps that kind of sound was what people needed to recover from the turmoil of the war years. A sort of musical PTSD...
Previous Message
The 'china shop' conductors are quite funny. Solti, of course, broke everything he conducted. And when there are that many bits you just sweep them up and put them in the bin.
Toscanini I disliked for many years until I heard him conduct Parsifal extracts with the BBCSO (obviously not live). It threw me. A lot of people dislike it; I love it. Far from a bull in a china shop it's the equivalent of watching grass grow or a very slow game of snooker. Or, a slow, slow burn. But it's also just beautiful. Generally, a lot of his Wagner is like that and it's wonderful. If I'd been born in 1887 I'd have heard his Parsifal at Bayreuth.
Mravinsky I can definitely live with. No one wants dull Shostakovich or Prokofiev; the more shattered it is the better. And listening to his rehearsals of some Shostakovich is terrifying. You don't need to understand Russian to know what is happening here.
Heifetz. When I was studying violin he was in many ways my idol (which young, teenage student doesn't want to play like Heifetz?). But, over the years I have come to dislike his recordings for much the reason you describe. His solo Bach is particularly cold. Give me Ferras, Oistrakh, Milstein, or Kogan any time. I just wish I knew these great violinists at 12 and I might have sounded better.
Pollini - just listen to his Boulez or Stockhausen. You just can't tell if it's perfect or not.
Karajan. The studio wasn't always kind to him. The concert hall was. There are, I am happy to say, many live recordings which prove Karajan was a firebrand conductor - and perfection wasn't a guarantee at some of his concerts. I saw him conduct some Berg and at the end thought he needed a doctor.
So, I do agree with most of what you write - but there is an alternative position to take. Rattle - well.......
Previous Message
After my last post re Under-rated masterpieces, I thought about the notion of Blind Spots. I had an experience with my writing which clarified my understanding of this concept. I had received an email from someone who could not see the point of reading further into the story I consider the best thing I've written. I understood that what he was getting at was to do with the notion of sensibilities. I mentioned to him that my wife loves the works of Gerald Murnane, Proust and Musil. I cannot read more than a page, in Murnane's case more than five sentences, without feeling bored and 'lost'. The writers I feel attuned to include Dostoevesky, Raymond Carver, Tobias Wolff, John Cheever, Alice Munro, if you get my drift. I mentioned a close friend who is a painter. He was invited to a Schoenberg Conference in Canada about ten years ago because he had incorporated Scoenberg into one of his paintings. My friend loves Schoenberg's music, he hates Anton Bruckner's music. I have every work Schoenberg wrote in my collection and hate every second of his music. I just don't 'get it'. I love Bruckner almost more than any other composer. My dislike of Schoenberg has nothing to do with atonality etc, because I love Webern and Berg. There is just something in Schoenberg that just grates on me. The early super-chromatic works are like being fed a diet of whipped cream and the later works sound clinical and come from a place I associate with the area called The Head: I love music, and writing, which comes from The Heart. Thus my Musical Blind Spots:
Schoenberg: music from the wrong place. Milhaud: flippy floppy stuff. Mendelssohn: busy, busy, busy. Where's your soul, man? Elgar's Dream of Gerontius: God spare me these kinds of dreams: I wish Gerontius permanent insomnia. Philip Glass:Much of his music reminds me of the Stuck Record syndrome associated with faulty LP's, the same syndrome when CDS get stuck. Rossini: Momma mia, a kind of perpetual inevitabity about much of his music, I do like some of his piano music, and the Petite Mass. Liszt: much of his music is pyrotechnical and musically vapid. There are magnificent exceptions, but most of his music leaves me cold and shivering. Messiaen: Perfect 'nothing' music for me. Mahler: Symphony 8. Full of sound and fury. Shostakovich: Symphony 7. Significant that the conductor I despise most - Toscanini conducted the Premiere. This music is the definition of kitsch.
Musicians who I don't understand, or 'get':
The conductors Toscanini, Solti, Mravinsky for reasons to do with bull at the gate, rhino in a china shop approach. Rattle: I just shake my head every time I hear anything conducted by this charming man. Though I do like something about his Bruckner 9. Pollini, Heifetz: digital perfection, where's the soul? My Pollini antidote is Arrau. My Heifetz antidote is Szigeti. Karajan: the original Mantovani. ( Though every now and then, something I hear knocks my socks off. Which is not a pretty sight, most have holes.)
I've probably bored the pants off one and all by now, so I'll leave it at that.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Mike Parr on October 17, 2020, 2:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
On second thought the review may have been the earlier EMI recording of le Nozze di Figaro. I can't recall which one it was referring to as both had Irmgard Seefried in them.
Previous Message
I enjoyed reading your list of "blind spots" Regarding von Karajan as the original Mantovani your comment reminded me of a review comment I saw many years ago in reference to his first recording of Die Zauberflote for EMI. It went something like "Karajan conducts Zauberflote as if it is the Merry Widow". I thought it rather insulting to Lehar. The writer had a point though, that first Zauberflote made Mozart sound like baby food compared to any other recording. Perhaps that kind of sound was what people needed to recover from the turmoil of the war years. A sort of musical PTSD...
Previous Message
The 'china shop' conductors are quite funny. Solti, of course, broke everything he conducted. And when there are that many bits you just sweep them up and put them in the bin.
Toscanini I disliked for many years until I heard him conduct Parsifal extracts with the BBCSO (obviously not live). It threw me. A lot of people dislike it; I love it. Far from a bull in a china shop it's the equivalent of watching grass grow or a very slow game of snooker. Or, a slow, slow burn. But it's also just beautiful. Generally, a lot of his Wagner is like that and it's wonderful. If I'd been born in 1887 I'd have heard his Parsifal at Bayreuth.
Mravinsky I can definitely live with. No one wants dull Shostakovich or Prokofiev; the more shattered it is the better. And listening to his rehearsals of some Shostakovich is terrifying. You don't need to understand Russian to know what is happening here.
Heifetz. When I was studying violin he was in many ways my idol (which young, teenage student doesn't want to play like Heifetz?). But, over the years I have come to dislike his recordings for much the reason you describe. His solo Bach is particularly cold. Give me Ferras, Oistrakh, Milstein, or Kogan any time. I just wish I knew these great violinists at 12 and I might have sounded better.
Pollini - just listen to his Boulez or Stockhausen. You just can't tell if it's perfect or not.
Karajan. The studio wasn't always kind to him. The concert hall was. There are, I am happy to say, many live recordings which prove Karajan was a firebrand conductor - and perfection wasn't a guarantee at some of his concerts. I saw him conduct some Berg and at the end thought he needed a doctor.
So, I do agree with most of what you write - but there is an alternative position to take. Rattle - well.......
Previous Message
After my last post re Under-rated masterpieces, I thought about the notion of Blind Spots. I had an experience with my writing which clarified my understanding of this concept. I had received an email from someone who could not see the point of reading further into the story I consider the best thing I've written. I understood that what he was getting at was to do with the notion of sensibilities. I mentioned to him that my wife loves the works of Gerald Murnane, Proust and Musil. I cannot read more than a page, in Murnane's case more than five sentences, without feeling bored and 'lost'. The writers I feel attuned to include Dostoevesky, Raymond Carver, Tobias Wolff, John Cheever, Alice Munro, if you get my drift. I mentioned a close friend who is a painter. He was invited to a Schoenberg Conference in Canada about ten years ago because he had incorporated Scoenberg into one of his paintings. My friend loves Schoenberg's music, he hates Anton Bruckner's music. I have every work Schoenberg wrote in my collection and hate every second of his music. I just don't 'get it'. I love Bruckner almost more than any other composer. My dislike of Schoenberg has nothing to do with atonality etc, because I love Webern and Berg. There is just something in Schoenberg that just grates on me. The early super-chromatic works are like being fed a diet of whipped cream and the later works sound clinical and come from a place I associate with the area called The Head: I love music, and writing, which comes from The Heart. Thus my Musical Blind Spots:
Schoenberg: music from the wrong place. Milhaud: flippy floppy stuff. Mendelssohn: busy, busy, busy. Where's your soul, man? Elgar's Dream of Gerontius: God spare me these kinds of dreams: I wish Gerontius permanent insomnia. Philip Glass:Much of his music reminds me of the Stuck Record syndrome associated with faulty LP's, the same syndrome when CDS get stuck. Rossini: Momma mia, a kind of perpetual inevitabity about much of his music, I do like some of his piano music, and the Petite Mass. Liszt: much of his music is pyrotechnical and musically vapid. There are magnificent exceptions, but most of his music leaves me cold and shivering. Messiaen: Perfect 'nothing' music for me. Mahler: Symphony 8. Full of sound and fury. Shostakovich: Symphony 7. Significant that the conductor I despise most - Toscanini conducted the Premiere. This music is the definition of kitsch.
Musicians who I don't understand, or 'get':
The conductors Toscanini, Solti, Mravinsky for reasons to do with bull at the gate, rhino in a china shop approach. Rattle: I just shake my head every time I hear anything conducted by this charming man. Though I do like something about his Bruckner 9. Pollini, Heifetz: digital perfection, where's the soul? My Pollini antidote is Arrau. My Heifetz antidote is Szigeti. Karajan: the original Mantovani. ( Though every now and then, something I hear knocks my socks off. Which is not a pretty sight, most have holes.)
I've probably bored the pants off one and all by now, so I'll leave it at that.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Ralph Moore on October 18, 2020, 10:45 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
The mere mention of Herbie's name is, I know, sufficient to make some music-lovers start to sweat and froth at the mouth. A friend used to like to recount how he walked into a record shop (remember those?) where HvK's "Madama Butterfly" was playing and was convinced it was Wagner - yet that is still my favourite version and I can name so many of his recordings which are my preferred recordings. As Marc says, however, there is plenty of evidence that Karajan could be a very exciting risk-taker live in the concert hall - I particularly esteem the recordings of his live performances with BPO in Moscow and some of his later appearances in the RFH, even when he was old and sick - so I am decidedly not in the Lebrecht school of loathing (which I suspect is based on personal prejudice rather than musical criteria). Where I disagree with Marc is over Solti; in my numerous opera surveys I was surprised how often he came out of top in my recommendations; far from "[breaking] everything he conducted" he is, in my estimation, still under-valued - and not just in opera but in many major Romantics. But there it is - de gustibus.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Marc Bridle on October 26, 2020, 1:21 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Ralph mentioning record shops and Solti in the same paragraph does remind me that my very first introduction to Maher 9 was the Solti LSO gate-fold LP sold in HMV (prob. mid 1980s). I think I had a certain amount of pocket money saved up and there weren't too many M9's on the stack. It wasn't so much back then I knew who Solti was - it's just the cover looked so much more dynamic. The alternative, I recall, was a terrifying (or, very dull - depending on your point of view) guy on a very uninspiring cover. He, of course, I later discovered was Otto Klemperer.
Previous Message
The mere mention of Herbie's name is, I know, sufficient to make some music-lovers start to sweat and froth at the mouth. A friend used to like to recount how he walked into a record shop (remember those?) where HvK's "Madama Butterfly" was playing and was convinced it was Wagner - yet that is still my favourite version and I can name so many of his recordings which are my preferred recordings. As Marc says, however, there is plenty of evidence that Karajan could be a very exciting risk-taker live in the concert hall - I particularly esteem the recordings of his live performances with BPO in Moscow and some of his later appearances in the RFH, even when he was old and sick - so I am decidedly not in the Lebrecht school of loathing (which I suspect is based on personal prejudice rather than musical criteria). Where I disagree with Marc is over Solti; in my numerous opera surveys I was surprised how often he came out of top in my recommendations; far from "[breaking] everything he conducted" he is, in my estimation, still under-valued - and not just in opera but in many major Romantics. But there it is - de gustibus.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Mike H on October 19, 2020, 11:29 am, in reply to "Blind Spots"
We all have these blind-spots, life would be very boring without them ! One man’s meat is another man’s poison etc. For my degree I had a Professor who was Schoenberg mad; he tried his best to convince me that he was a genius – he may well be, but I just don’t get him and I never wish to hear his Variations again. I suspect we all have some, seemingly irrational, blind-spots. I can’t stand Bruckner ( I have multiple recordings of all the symphonies and have tried to enjoy but become distracted after a few minutes) but love Wagner, dislike Italian bel canto opera but enjoy French bel canto, find Liszt to showy but like Alkan (explain that one !). As for conductors, I like the “eccentrics”, probably because , whatever they are doing, they make you sit up and take notice. My likes include Silvestri, Beecham, Sinopoli and among the newer breed Currentzis. I agree with you Dieter regarding Rattle. You may gather from the above that I have a low boredom threshold and am ancient, you are probably right on both counts. There is no logic to this, perhaps irrational prejudice, but that’s what makes listening to music so great. As long as you listen with an open mind does it really matter if you have blind-spots ? There’s a thesis here awaiting someone !
Happy listening, keep up the good work Dieter, stay safe.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Ralph Moore on October 19, 2020, 1:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Mike, as one of the resident Bruckner-mavens on MWI who loves and frequently reviews him, while I might clutch my chest and try to breathe slowly when anyone says they don't get Bruckner, then I remember that it was years before I found that I suddenly appreciated him and that devotion has only increased since - although you do say you are well advanced into the vale of years, so I hope plenty of time remains for you to come around.
However, I do agree with you about interesting conductors and like your short-list. Sadly, the only thing upon which so many of us agree is that Sir Simon does not - shall I say? - figure prominently on that list.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 20, 2020, 1:21 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
I had a similar Damascus moment with Bruckner. The first Bruckner I bought was the Westminster Knappertsbusch Munich Bruckner 8. I did not get it at all. Then I saved my shillings and pence and bought the Kertesz 4. Yes, that was etwahr gut, as we say in my old country, and apart from hearing the scherzo of the 8th conducted by Karajan on the radio and being bowled over, Bruckner lay on the back burner for me until I walked into John Clements, a once-famous Melbourne record store, and this mighty music was thundering through the store. I asked my friend, Francis, What the F is this? He held up the cover: Bruckner 8, the beginning of the last movement, Eugen Jochum, Dresden Staatskapelle. I bowed down. I thanked the Lord.
Previous Message
Mike, as one of the resident Bruckner-mavens on MWI who loves and frequently reviews him, while I might clutch my chest and try to breathe slowly when anyone says they don't get Bruckner, then I remember that it was years before I found that I suddenly appreciated him and that devotion has only increased since - although you do say you are well advanced into the vale of years, so I hope plenty of time remains for you to come around.
However, I do agree with you about interesting conductors and like your short-list. Sadly, the only thing upon which so many of us agree is that Sir Simon does not - shall I say? - figure prominently on that list.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Evan Blackmore on October 20, 2020, 2:31 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
This raises a question. Can blind spots be cured? The history of Bruckner would seem to suggest that they can... sometimes. And, in my darker & gloomier moments, I sometimes wonder, “If (for instance) Bax had been systematically dinned into the ears of a reluctant & recalcitrant world by successive generations of the very greatest conductors for 50 years, as Bruckner was... would his reputation today stand very much lower than Bruckner’s?” (I’m old enough to remember how the world used to regard Bruckner, and Mahler too.)
Wordsworth and Coleridge used to say that the artist has to create the taste by which he is to be enjoyed (implying that this process often takes time and mental adjustment). In effect, Klemperer made the same point when he said, “You will get used to it, Walter.” Maybe my blind spots are cases where I haven’t yet got used to it (and, I fear, may not want to let that happen).
Reviews can sometimes help with the mental adjustment. For 40+ years I’ve listened to the 1960 La Scala Berlioz Troyens (or rather Troiani) for the sake of Kubelik’s conducting, in spite of what I always regarded as a hilariously inappropriate performance of the central role. Along comes one Ralph Moore, who describes that performance as “suitably heroic,” “virile but not stentorian,” and even, to my jaw-dropping amazement, “capable of some subtlety.” I go back and listen with fresh ears, and... yes, I can indeed recognize what Mr Moore is describing. My mind has been educated (in one tiny respect).
I hope blind spots can be cured. I’m not proud of mine. They make me narrow-minded, petty-minded, splenetic, bilious, bigoted, lacking in breadth of sympathy... everything that I am, and that I don’t want to be.
The more blind spots I have, the narrower my prison cell is, and the more real pleasures I’m missing out on. We all pity the people who can’t enjoy a recording (however great its other merits may be) if a certain performer (typically Callas or Sutherland or Del Monaco or Fischer-Dieskau) happens to be on it. “How much they’re missing!” we say. Ah, but are we ourselves so different?
Perhaps one day I will even learn to endure that interminable load of whining self-pity in bad German doggerel called Winterreise.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 20, 2020, 6:35 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Interesting and thought-provoking reply. With regard to the Bax/Bruckner dichotomy, the bottom line is that the great conductors kept playing Bruckner and, as Otto Klemp predicted, the world got used to it. Bax's trouble is that not many conductors want to play his music. I also think it's possible that Wordsworth and Coleridge may have implied that an artist can only create a taste for his work in his own garden: in that way, music is intrinsically more 'universal' than the barriers language create. Agreed, a critic can open one's eyes but in the end, a critic can only adjust one's eyesight so far; for example, I can listen to a critic telling me Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony Number one is a great and subtle and concise work of genius. After listening for three minutes I switch it off: literally, my lights go out, I am metaphorically blinded. At a Coriole Music Festival in 2018, I sat through a performance of Schumann's opus 39 Liederkreis. The tenor was a chap making a name for himself, Daniel Carison, the pianist, now blazing in the firmament, one Andre Gugnin. Apart from wincing every now and then at bad German pronunciation, I loved it. There was an English chap sitting nearby, a rather scholarly gent, an author, etc who started a discussion about the poetry. I admitted I had no idea what the songs were about, assuming they were to do with love, adoration, the woes of love, reconciliation, the usual Romantic codswallop, and his eyes lit up, molto aghast that I wasn't following the lyrics. He assured me it was as important as the music. I mention this with reference to your comment about 'bad German doggerel.'You have defined precisely why I prefer to not know what mode of self- pity is being sung about. Thanks for your enjoyable reply.
Previous Message
This raises a question. Can blind spots be cured? The history of Bruckner would seem to suggest that they can... sometimes. And, in my darker & gloomier moments, I sometimes wonder, “If (for instance) Bax had been systematically dinned into the ears of a reluctant & recalcitrant world by successive generations of the very greatest conductors for 50 years, as Bruckner was... would his reputation today stand very much lower than Bruckner’s?” (I’m old enough to remember how the world used to regard Bruckner, and Mahler too.)
Wordsworth and Coleridge used to say that the artist has to create the taste by which he is to be enjoyed (implying that this process often takes time and mental adjustment). In effect, Klemperer made the same point when he said, “You will get used to it, Walter.” Maybe my blind spots are cases where I haven’t yet got used to it (and, I fear, may not want to let that happen).
Reviews can sometimes help with the mental adjustment. For 40+ years I’ve listened to the 1960 La Scala Berlioz Troyens (or rather Troiani ) for the sake of Kubelik’s conducting, in spite of what I always regarded as a hilariously inappropriate performance of the central role. Along comes one Ralph Moore, who describes that performance as “suitably heroic,” “virile but not stentorian,” and even, to my jaw-dropping amazement, “capable of some subtlety.” I go back and listen with fresh ears, and... yes, I can indeed recognize what Mr Moore is describing. My mind has been educated (in one tiny respect).
I hope blind spots can be cured. I’m not proud of mine. They make me narrow-minded, petty-minded, splenetic, bilious, bigoted, lacking in breadth of sympathy... everything that I am, and that I don’t want to be.
The more blind spots I have, the narrower my prison cell is, and the more real pleasures I’m missing out on. We all pity the people who can’t enjoy a recording (however great its other merits may be) if a certain performer (typically Callas or Sutherland or Del Monaco or Fischer-Dieskau) happens to be on it. “How much they’re missing!” we say. Ah, but are we ourselves so different?
Perhaps one day I will even learn to endure that interminable load of whining self-pity in bad German doggerel called Winterreise .
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Evan Blackmore on October 20, 2020, 12:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Thanks for your kind and (as ever) many-sided response; your posts are always so rich in material that one finds one's mind pursuing 50 different thoughts at once.
Yes, I'm afraid critics (and performers!) don't often cure blind spots. "You will get used to it, Walter" is a great line--but DID Legge actually get used to it, or to any other point on which he didn't see eye to eye with Klemperer? I fear not!
So perhaps I'm doomed to carry my prejudice against Winterreise to my grave.
But I must retract that remark about "bad German doggerel." Anyone who is capable of stringing together a sentence in German, of any quality, has my unstinted & unmitigated admiration. I've been wrestling with the awful language (Mark Twain's adjective, not mine) for exactly 50 years, and I still haven't made any significant progress with it. If indeed all German babies talk the German language, and I'm reliably informed that they do, then the whole nation must be a nation of geniuses, that's all I can say.
I must also retract the totally unjust accusation that Winterreise is "interminable." On the contrary, the work does have a termination, as I of all people should know, because it's the only part of the thing that I enjoy.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Rob McKenzie on October 24, 2020, 11:42 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Evan, you rightly ask whether Bax's reputation would stand much lower than Bruckner's today if the very greatest conductors had played his music for 50 years. I have always thought that Bax badly needed a continental or American champion who would introduce his music to the world. Beecham was the one Englishman who could have done it and, while I don't begrudge him his advocacy for Delius, it's unfortunate he wasn't moved to do the same for Bax. EMI and Decca's lack of interest was equally unfortunate: the former recorded only one of his symphonies (on 78s), the latter none at all!
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Evan Blackmore on October 25, 2020, 8:29 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Yes, I wonder if the mainstream "English" style of conducting, which works so well with Vaughan Williams etc., is ideally suited to Bax. On the other hand, a Vaughan Williams symphony conducted by Furtwängler would doubtless sound highly unidiomatic, whereas when a Bax symphony conducted by Furtwängler… ah, that would be a different story! In other words, I wonder if Bax would benefit from a more personal, fluid, flexible, overtly impassioned, even idiosyncratic approach than he has usually received. And I fully agree that Beecham would have seemed well qualified for that task.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 20, 2020, 1:13 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
I enjoyed reading your reply. I've always loved these conversations. The conductors I like include Celibidache - I don't mind his late, slow, phase - and am getting to know the works of Thomas and Michael Sanderling. I also enjoy Berglund, Inbal, Skrowaszewski, Wit, Neumann, Ancerl, Colin Davis's Berlioz, Dohnanyi, Blomstedt, Masur, Flor, Jochum, Furtwangler most of all, Kurt Sanderling - am listening to his Haydn Paris Symphonies - Klemperer and Giulini, Gielen, Bertini and Markevich. Stay safe, young man.
Previous Message
We all have these blind-spots, life would be very boring without them ! One man’s meat is another man’s poison etc. For my degree I had a Professor who was Schoenberg mad; he tried his best to convince me that he was a genius – he may well be, but I just don’t get him and I never wish to hear his Variations again. I suspect we all have some, seemingly irrational, blind-spots. I can’t stand Bruckner ( I have multiple recordings of all the symphonies and have tried to enjoy but become distracted after a few minutes) but love Wagner, dislike Italian bel canto opera but enjoy French bel canto, find Liszt to showy but like Alkan (explain that one !). As for conductors, I like the “eccentrics”, probably because , whatever they are doing, they make you sit up and take notice. My likes include Silvestri, Beecham, Sinopoli and among the newer breed Currentzis. I agree with you Dieter regarding Rattle. You may gather from the above that I have a low boredom threshold and am ancient, you are probably right on both counts. There is no logic to this, perhaps irrational prejudice, but that’s what makes listening to music so great. As long as you listen with an open mind does it really matter if you have blind-spots ? There’s a thesis here awaiting someone !
Happy listening, keep up the good work Dieter, stay safe.
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Mike H on October 20, 2020, 8:13 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
Hi Dieter
How could I forget Blomstedt & Berglund ? When he was in Bournemouth I became good friends with the latter. Good to watch for a "difference" - he was left handed and it took some orchestras a little time to get used to him. Brilliant in Sibelius and especially (his much underrated) Shostakovich. His 11th Symphony is special - he believed inn it as music not just as Soviet posturing. Also his Nielsen 5th is one of the best. Best of all his son has a vineyard in France , an excellent red (well tested). I have recently acquired Blomstedt's new Stenhammer - quite magnificent. And he is only 90 years old and , like wine, will get better with age ! Take care
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 20, 2020, 10:20 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
What part of France? I work in the Wine Business. My grandparents on my mother's side were Vignerons in Banat, Voivodina. I love Berglund's Ma Vlast. Berglund's is one of my three favourites out of twenty-two recordings. Who said I was a fanatic?
Previous Message
Hi Dieter
How could I forget Blomstedt & Berglund ? When he was in Bournemouth I became good friends with the latter. Good to watch for a "difference" - he was left handed and it took some orchestras a little time to get used to him. Brilliant in Sibelius and especially (his much underrated) Shostakovich. His 11th Symphony is special - he believed inn it as music not just as Soviet posturing. Also his Nielsen 5th is one of the best. Best of all his son has a vineyard in France , an excellent red (well tested). I have recently acquired Blomstedt's new Stenhammer - quite magnificent. And he is only 90 years old and , like wine, will get better with age ! Take care
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by Mike H on October 20, 2020, 10:37 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
What part of France? I work in the Wine Business. My grandparents on my mother's side were Vignerons in Banat, Voivodina. I love Berglund's Ma Vlast. Berglund's is one of my three favourites out of twenty-two recordings. Who said I was a fanatic?
Previous Message
Hi Dieter
How could I forget Blomstedt & Berglund ? When he was in Bournemouth I became good friends with the latter. Good to watch for a "difference" - he was left handed and it took some orchestras a little time to get used to him. Brilliant in Sibelius and especially (his much underrated) Shostakovich. His 11th Symphony is special - he believed inn it as music not just as Soviet posturing. Also his Nielsen 5th is one of the best. Best of all his son has a vineyard in France , an excellent red (well tested). I have recently acquired Blomstedt's new Stenhammer - quite magnificent. And he is only 90 years old and , like wine, will get better with age ! Take care
Re: Blind Spots
Posted by dieter barkhoff on October 21, 2020, 2:52 am, in reply to "Re: Blind Spots"
I nearly fell off my throne when I read the link: Chateau Carsin. Yesterday I mentioned a Schumann recital sung by Daniel Carison. Nearly but not quite...
What part of France? I work in the Wine Business. My grandparents on my mother's side were Vignerons in Banat, Voivodina. I love Berglund's Ma Vlast. Berglund's is one of my three favourites out of twenty-two recordings. Who said I was a fanatic?
Previous Message
Hi Dieter
How could I forget Blomstedt & Berglund ? When he was in Bournemouth I became good friends with the latter. Good to watch for a "difference" - he was left handed and it took some orchestras a little time to get used to him. Brilliant in Sibelius and especially (his much underrated) Shostakovich. His 11th Symphony is special - he believed inn it as music not just as Soviet posturing. Also his Nielsen 5th is one of the best. Best of all his son has a vineyard in France , an excellent red (well tested). I have recently acquired Blomstedt's new Stenhammer - quite magnificent. And he is only 90 years old and , like wine, will get better with age ! Take care