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Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Dieter Barkhoff on September 7, 2022, 2:07 am
Hi Ralph. Great read however I completely disagree with the value you place on the Karajan and Kubelik recordings. Karajan is Karajan in these works, but hardly echt Dvorak, and I also am audibly stunned by how 'unecht' the German orchestras Kubelik uses sound. I agree about the Suitner recordings, but they are on the Germanic scale of Czech swings and roundabouts. I haven't heard the Kertesz recordings... The recordings to which I return again and again are the Vaclav Neumann recordings - you vant Czech-sounding Dvorak, zis is vat you get. I also have a problem with the Rowicki set lauded in some quarters. It also just 'sounds' wrong... Regards
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Ralph Moore on September 7, 2022, 8:42 am, in reply to "Serebrier Dvorak"
I haven't heard the Neumann set but will happily give it a try based on your endorsement. At least we partially agree regarding Suitner but I would go to the stake in proclaiming the Fricsay Ninth as the single greatest Dvorak recording I know and I am almost as enthusiastic about the Szell Seventh and Slavonic Dances, and the Karajan Eighth. I do know that they and Kertesz are all preferable to this Serebrier set.
Previous Message
Hi Ralph. Great read however I completely disagree with the value you place on the Karajan and Kubelik recordings. Karajan is Karajan in these works, but hardly echt Dvorak, and I also am audibly stunned by how 'unecht' the German orchestras Kubelik uses sound. I agree about the Suitner recordings, but they are on the Germanic scale of Czech swings and roundabouts. I haven't heard the Kertesz recordings... The recordings to which I return again and again are the Vaclav Neumann recordings - you vant Czech-sounding Dvorak, zis is vat you get. I also have a problem with the Rowicki set lauded in some quarters. It also just 'sounds' wrong... Regards
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Evan Blackmore on September 7, 2022, 8:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Serebrier Dvorak"
Delighted to read Dieter's praise of Neumann. Note that Neumann recorded the complete Dvořák symphonies twice for Supraphon, in startlingly different styles: a warmer, more laid-back 1970s analogue cycle now in an 8-CD Symphonic Works box (coupled with N’s recordings of the symphonic poems & overtures), and a much tauter, sharper-edged 1980s cycle in characteristic early digital sound, now reissued on three 2-CD sets. When the latter cycle first came out I was rather horrified by the change, and I don’t think it has the immediate appeal of the earlier one, but over the years I’ve learned that it’s tremendously good for cleansing the ears of schmaltz!
In fact I like to hear Dvořák done in a diversity of styles. I yield to nobody in my love of tangy Czech performances (Talich, Neumann, etc), but I also admire those conductors who absorb Dvořák totally into the Central European tradition, as if he isn’t a mere parochial figure but a solid symphonic craftsman who can look Schubert & Brahms straight in the eye without flinching. My complaint is that the very best Teutonizers of Dvořák confined their attention to Nos. 8 & 9. (Here I’m thinking not only of early Karajan, but also of the two conductors named Bruno Walter—the Sturm-und-Drang 1940s New Yorker and the Indian-Summer 1960ish Californian—at least as different as the two Neumanns!) I wish they had gone further.
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by dieter barkhoff on September 8, 2022, 3:05 am, in reply to "Re: Serebrier Dvorak"
I love your reply. I am aware of the 2 Neumann sets: I just love the sound of the orchestra as much as his conducting. And I agree, of course, that Dvorak is not just Czech Tang... I'm listening to Von K as I write: it's okay but the Von K smoothie/Mantovani trademark overcomes the brilliant piquancy of Dvorak's score.
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Delighted to read Dieter's praise of Neumann. Note that Neumann recorded the complete Dvořák symphonies twice for Supraphon, in startlingly different styles: a warmer, more laid-back 1970s analogue cycle now in an 8-CD Symphonic Works box (coupled with N’s recordings of the symphonic poems & overtures), and a much tauter, sharper-edged 1980s cycle in characteristic early digital sound, now reissued on three 2-CD sets. When the latter cycle first came out I was rather horrified by the change, and I don’t think it has the immediate appeal of the earlier one, but over the years I’ve learned that it’s tremendously good for cleansing the ears of schmaltz!
In fact I like to hear Dvořák done in a diversity of styles. I yield to nobody in my love of tangy Czech performances (Talich, Neumann, etc), but I also admire those conductors who absorb Dvořák totally into the Central European tradition, as if he isn’t a mere parochial figure but a solid symphonic craftsman who can look Schubert & Brahms straight in the eye without flinching. My complaint is that the very best Teutonizers of Dvořák confined their attention to Nos. 8 & 9. (Here I’m thinking not only of early Karajan, but also of the two conductors named Bruno Walter—the Sturm-und-Drang 1940s New Yorker and the Indian-Summer 1960ish Californian—at least as different as the two Neumanns!) I wish they had gone further.
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Nick Barnard on September 8, 2022, 8:01 am, in reply to "Re: Serebrier Dvorak"
Interesting! - absolutely agree over the quality of Neumann but MUCH prefer analogue cycle to digital remake. I find the latter cycle to be far less engaged and dynamic even at very similar tempi. Its the Czech PO so it sounds lovely but for me far more routine than the early set. But then I don't think the Serebrier set is nearly as bad as Ralph would have you think either!
Previous Message
Delighted to read Dieter's praise of Neumann. Note that Neumann recorded the complete Dvořák symphonies twice for Supraphon, in startlingly different styles: a warmer, more laid-back 1970s analogue cycle now in an 8-CD Symphonic Works box (coupled with N’s recordings of the symphonic poems & overtures), and a much tauter, sharper-edged 1980s cycle in characteristic early digital sound, now reissued on three 2-CD sets. When the latter cycle first came out I was rather horrified by the change, and I don’t think it has the immediate appeal of the earlier one, but over the years I’ve learned that it’s tremendously good for cleansing the ears of schmaltz!
In fact I like to hear Dvořák done in a diversity of styles. I yield to nobody in my love of tangy Czech performances (Talich, Neumann, etc), but I also admire those conductors who absorb Dvořák totally into the Central European tradition, as if he isn’t a mere parochial figure but a solid symphonic craftsman who can look Schubert & Brahms straight in the eye without flinching. My complaint is that the very best Teutonizers of Dvořák confined their attention to Nos. 8 & 9. (Here I’m thinking not only of early Karajan, but also of the two conductors named Bruno Walter—the Sturm-und-Drang 1940s New Yorker and the Indian-Summer 1960ish Californian—at least as different as the two Neumanns!) I wish they had gone further.
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Mikeh on September 8, 2022, 8:26 am, in reply to "Re: Serebrier Dvorak"
Hi Ralph
Perhaps you got out of the wrong side of the bed when you reviewed the Serebrier? It may well not be the best but I find it pretty good overall, especially in the middle symphonies and 7. The big let down for me is 8 - I still love the Ancerl recording on the EMI twofer and have a soft spot for the Dorati/Mercury 8 - hard driven but exciting!
Previous Message
Interesting! - absolutely agree over the quality of Neumann but MUCH prefer analogue cycle to digital remake. I find the latter cycle to be far less engaged and dynamic even at very similar tempi. Its the Czech PO so it sounds lovely but for me far more routine than the early set. But then I don't think the Serebrier set is nearly as bad as Ralph would have you think either!
Previous Message
Delighted to read Dieter's praise of Neumann. Note that Neumann recorded the complete Dvořák symphonies twice for Supraphon, in startlingly different styles: a warmer, more laid-back 1970s analogue cycle now in an 8-CD Symphonic Works box (coupled with N’s recordings of the symphonic poems & overtures), and a much tauter, sharper-edged 1980s cycle in characteristic early digital sound, now reissued on three 2-CD sets. When the latter cycle first came out I was rather horrified by the change, and I don’t think it has the immediate appeal of the earlier one, but over the years I’ve learned that it’s tremendously good for cleansing the ears of schmaltz!
In fact I like to hear Dvořák done in a diversity of styles. I yield to nobody in my love of tangy Czech performances (Talich, Neumann, etc), but I also admire those conductors who absorb Dvořák totally into the Central European tradition, as if he isn’t a mere parochial figure but a solid symphonic craftsman who can look Schubert & Brahms straight in the eye without flinching. My complaint is that the very best Teutonizers of Dvořák confined their attention to Nos. 8 & 9. (Here I’m thinking not only of early Karajan, but also of the two conductors named Bruno Walter—the Sturm-und-Drang 1940s New Yorker and the Indian-Summer 1960ish Californian—at least as different as the two Neumanns!) I wish they had gone further.
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Ralph Moore on September 8, 2022, 9:27 am, in reply to "Re: Serebrier Dvorak"
It's always possible, Mikeh, but I was surprised as I hardly expected to find the recordings so dull and characterless. I always try to speak/write as I find but I did acknowledge that my fellow-reviewers liked the set much more and the subsequent discussion agrees that different ways and tastes obtain when it comes to how Dvorak should be performed. In the end, I am going to repose upon the old cliche about the best being the enemy of the good - and I'm not sure that Serebrier's recordings are even that!
Previous Message
Hi Ralph
Perhaps you got out of the wrong side of the bed when you reviewed the Serebrier? It may well not be the best but I find it pretty good overall, especially in the middle symphonies and 7. The big let down for me is 8 - I still love the Ancerl recording on the EMI twofer and have a soft spot for the Dorati/Mercury 8 - hard driven but exciting!
Previous Message
Interesting! - absolutely agree over the quality of Neumann but MUCH prefer analogue cycle to digital remake. I find the latter cycle to be far less engaged and dynamic even at very similar tempi. Its the Czech PO so it sounds lovely but for me far more routine than the early set. But then I don't think the Serebrier set is nearly as bad as Ralph would have you think either!
Previous Message
Delighted to read Dieter's praise of Neumann. Note that Neumann recorded the complete Dvořák symphonies twice for Supraphon, in startlingly different styles: a warmer, more laid-back 1970s analogue cycle now in an 8-CD Symphonic Works box (coupled with N’s recordings of the symphonic poems & overtures), and a much tauter, sharper-edged 1980s cycle in characteristic early digital sound, now reissued on three 2-CD sets. When the latter cycle first came out I was rather horrified by the change, and I don’t think it has the immediate appeal of the earlier one, but over the years I’ve learned that it’s tremendously good for cleansing the ears of schmaltz!
In fact I like to hear Dvořák done in a diversity of styles. I yield to nobody in my love of tangy Czech performances (Talich, Neumann, etc), but I also admire those conductors who absorb Dvořák totally into the Central European tradition, as if he isn’t a mere parochial figure but a solid symphonic craftsman who can look Schubert & Brahms straight in the eye without flinching. My complaint is that the very best Teutonizers of Dvořák confined their attention to Nos. 8 & 9. (Here I’m thinking not only of early Karajan, but also of the two conductors named Bruno Walter—the Sturm-und-Drang 1940s New Yorker and the Indian-Summer 1960ish Californian—at least as different as the two Neumanns!) I wish they had gone further.
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Ralph Moore on September 8, 2022, 10:31 am, in reply to "Serebrier Dvorak"
Just listened to the earlier, analogue Neumann "New World" - yes; excellent, great timps, grainy woodwind, superb depth of sound and a real sense of forward momentum. Not as thrilling as Fricsay - especially in the finale - but thoroughly idiomatic and engaging and the Largo is very poetic. Great drive, then lilt, in the Scherzo - but the Trio lumbers a bit. Despite the propulsiveness, he's a "rallentando" conductor who pulls back without sounding self-conscious or losing the pulse.
I'll be trying some of the other symphonies.
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Ralph Moore on September 9, 2022, 10:25 am, in reply to "Re: Serebrier Dvorak"
PS: I listened to Neumann's Third at my friend and fellow-reviewer Lee Denham's prompting, and agree that it is a revelation - such verve and colour from the Czech orchestra; it seems that he was especially good in the earlier symphonies which I have tended to under-value. Thank you, Lee!
Previous Message
Just listened to the earlier, analogue Neumann "New World" - yes; excellent, great timps, grainy woodwind, superb depth of sound and a real sense of forward momentum. Not as thrilling as Fricsay - especially in the finale - but thoroughly idiomatic and engaging and the Largo is very poetic. Great drive, then lilt, in the Scherzo - but the Trio lumbers a bit. Despite the propulsiveness, he's a "rallentando" conductor who pulls back without sounding self-conscious or losing the pulse.
I'll be trying some of the other symphonies.
Re: Serebrier Dvorak
Posted by Chris Howell on September 10, 2022, 7:57 am, in reply to "Re: Serebrier Dvorak"
It's worth going back to Neumann's early recordings of 1, 2 and 4 with the Prague Symphony orchestra. He was less of a rallentando conductor in those days, very full-blooded performances. Only no. 4 is in (fairly rudimentary) stereo, though. Not no. 3? That was farmed out to Smetacek, and it's a terrific performance. I think this may also have been in early stereo, though I had it on a mono LP.
Previous Message
PS: I listened to Neumann's Third at my friend and fellow-reviewer Lee Denham's prompting, and agree that it is a revelation - such verve and colour from the Czech orchestra; it seems that he was especially good in the earlier symphonies which I have tended to under-value. Thank you, Lee!