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Help with big decition with my lame mare? Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 10:43 am 12.104.134.130 I posted here last spring about my lame morab mare and what to do with her. I got a lot of good ideas and some of them prompted me to keep her longer and try to help her get better. I gave her anti-inflamitories over two or so months (the vets suggestion) and she was sound for four months (the longest ever!) but then two weeks ago she came down more lame then ever before. She can hardly put any weight on it at all! I know she must be in quite a bit of pain ( I am getting pain meds from my vet for her soon) but am back to square one. Over the winter she was very lame and could hardly move. I had assumed this was because she was in a little bit of mud and it was cold. But now I am thinking she is just getting worse every time she goes lame (she goes on and off lame). Anyway, I am now trying to decide what to do for the winter, and in the long run. Right now my oppoins are: 1. Board her somewhere with no mud in a paddock (I have a big dry lot pasture but its on a steep hill and has lots of obsticals). If I can find someplace inexpensive this could work for the winter, but I am unsure if that is the life I want her to live and if I can keep up with the board on her. 2. Trade her winter board for conditioning another horse. Oviously I would need to find someone willing to make this arangment. I ride my other horse out on the trails and am experianced on the trails. I have access to lots of great parks for conditioning horses for trail or endurance (my goal and why I bought my current lame mare). Also I would have to make a decition on her next year if her lameness stayed the same. 3. I could try and find her a home where she can be in a suitable situation for her condition. But I am again, worried that she will still be in pain. Although if I could find her a great situation where she could just be a pampered pasture pet she would probably be pretty happy! Of course where am I going to find that? 4. I could put her down. As much as it would break my heart (she has so much life!) I also hate to see her in pain like this. Its hard too to try and make that decition since when she is sound she is so energitic and bouncy!. 5. I could donate her to UC Davis. This of course also being under putting her down, but at least in a helpfull way I guess. Anyway, I am just so unsure of what to do! I hate the idea of putting her down, but it does seem like every time she goes lame she gets worse. I am also not sure I can handle the ups and downs of her going on and off lame any more. When she is sound I have hope that she will heal and be sound and happy. Then when she goes lame again I am just that more sad that she is lame. As far a vet stuff, our main option right now is to do a bone scan of her whole front leg since so many vets think it is in so many different places. Although the last vet (Russ Peterson) felt fairly strongly that it was way deep inside her shoulder blades and that even if we do a bone scan and find that spot to be the most inflamed there is no way of finding out what is wrong beyond that. Sorry for the long story! Any suggestions? I know this is a decition I have to make myself, but I feel better if others give input! Thanks!  Post a Response

#4 or #5 Posted by WindmillHills Cheryl on 9/17/2009, 11:35 am, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 75.35.111.25 It sounds like you have been trying many things with success off and on. I think it would be very hard to find her a better home that was willing to continue to experiment with trying to make her sound. With the way the economy is, probably far better and safer for her to be put down or donated to research then to face an uncertain future or a possible ride on a truck to slaughter. Good luck with your decision, I know you will have a lot of heart ache and stress while you try to figure out what is best for her and you. I am struggling with a similar decision and still haven't found the strength to decide to put the mare down. But she is 28 with bone chips in a knee that is making movement more and more painful for her over the years. I just can't decide when it is better to end her pain or let her continue to gimp around??? All us animal lovers always go thru these types of internal struggles, you are in good company. Essential Oils - bring health to yourself and your horses. http://www.WMHCheryl.com http://www.youngliving.org/WMHCheryl  Post a Response

Re: #4 or #5 Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 11:59 am, in reply to "#4 or #5" 12.104.134.130 Thank you! I am sorry about you mare! Have you had her for a long time? One of my own problems si that my mare is only 10 and I have only had for a year! It makes me sad to think about all the years I could have had her and enjoyed her! Thank you again for the input, its deffinity taken into account and considered!  Post a Response

I've had her about 10 years Posted by WindmillHills Cheryl on 9/17/2009, 12:12 pm, in reply to "Re: #4 or #5" 75.35.111.25 I took her in when she was 18 (supposedly - probably more like 20 which makes her actually probably 30 instead of 28 - LOL). She had bone chips then and that is why they needed to find her a home without super steep hills that aggrivated her pain. So I took her in to semi-retire her (light occassional riding). She was fine for light riding for about 5 more years, but then an injury to another leg caused her knee with the bone chips to really blow out and be painful. So we haven't ridden her for the last 5 years or so. Her light gimping didn't seem to slow her down and she would run around pasture with the rest of the herd. But the last year I've had to keep her out of pasture with another old mare so she wouldn't get picked on by the herd. Maybe that is why her knee is worse? Or it is just old age catching up with her. Or being fat since she isn't getting the constant exercise from pasture life? Maybe I will risk putting her back in pasture to see if more exercise actually helps??? She is in awesome shape for her age (still nice flat back, great body). It is just that darn blown out knee that makes her life painful - ugh. The vets didn't recommend surgery years ago due to her age, so doubt that would be a wise option now due to her age (not that I could afford surgery now anyway). But yes - your decision is far harder because it is a younger horse. But none of us like to have to make the choice no matter what the age of the horse. Essential Oils - bring health to yourself and your horses. http://www.WMHCheryl.com http://www.youngliving.org/WMHCheryl  Post a Response

Re: I've had her about 10 years Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 12:35 pm, in reply to "I've had her about 10 years" 12.104.134.130 Just our of curiousity, do you give her anything for the pain? I have heard that msm can act as a mild anti-inflamitory. I have considered for my mare but her lameness seems to go far beyond what a mild pain killer might be able to help. Best of luck to you and your mare!  Post a Response

yep - she has been on tons of stuff Posted by WindmillHills Cheryl on 9/17/2009, 12:45 pm, in reply to "Re: I've had her about 10 years" 75.35.111.25 She has been getting tons of various stuff over the years. MSM, glucosamine, ground flax in high volumes helps also, lots of various herbs, homeopathics, topical essential oil treatments to help with the pain and inflamation, quantum touch, Adequan shots, etc, etc. Some things helped, some didn't. But they have helped maintain her for many years. It just seems like nothing much helps lately. And no I won't put her on daily bute - I hate bute. Essential Oils - bring health to yourself and your horses. http://www.WMHCheryl.com http://www.youngliving.org/WMHCheryl  Post a Response

Re: yep - she has been on tons of stuff Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 2:07 pm, in reply to "yep - she has been on tons of stuff" 12.104.134.130 I totally understand not wanting to put her on bute, I hate drugs of any kind for me or my horses! I hated having to put my mare on naproxin and then bute daily for over two months in a row. Best to you and your mare!  Post a Response

I've got a rescue I took in Posted by equestqh on 9/19/2009, 10:38 am, in reply to "#4 or #5" 74.37.113.105 (from someone else who rescued her) in a similar situation. Luckily, I'm on flat land and she gets about just fine. But it does appear it's getting harder and harder, even in the summer months. She came here with a really bad right knee. And while she seems content hanging out, I wish there was a way I could know for absolute sure if she's in pain or not, and has just adapted to her situation. I don't know what happened to her to get her into this physical condition. I can tell, though, prior to this she was a pretty nice, stout well-built working mare. I'm leaning towards putting her down this winter. I need to reconcile it in my head. It will be much easier when the winter hits and it's cold. Then I'll see how hard it is for her to move about, and that will be the decision. No, I am not smarter than a 5th grader, but occasionally I am smarter than a 1st grader.  Post a Response

I agree Posted by slaveto3mares on 9/17/2009, 11:55 am, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 64.139.253.165 | Message modified by user slaveto3mares 9/17/2009, 11:56 am As hard as it is...I think you should put her down. You just can't go on like this! The first options are not getting her permanently sound for sure. Sound, young, healthy horses can't even get those pasture pet positions right now! If she ends up costing folks money, she may end up at auction, in a bad situation, or in untreated pain... Really the only way to know she's being cared for is if you do it yourself. If you donate her, know exactly what they may do to her in their research while she's still alive. I have watched your posts and know you have done your best, at great expense financially and emotionally. Sorry you are facing this decision. If Someone Shows You Who They Are, Believe Them - Maya Angelou  Post a Response

Re: I agree Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 12:02 pm, in reply to "I agree" 12.104.134.130 Thank you! I agree, neither her, nor me, nor the other people in my life can go on doing this! Thank you for your support!  Post a Response

I missed the whole story Posted by Dr Thunes on 9/17/2009, 1:44 pm, in reply to "I agree" 128.120.218.130 I missed the whole story on this only have seen this latest post but want to throw something out there. I agree re #4 or 5 but want to also suggest finding a vet with a force plate. I went to a lameness talk at UCD 2 weeks ago. It was given by Dr Bo VRock of Borck veterinary clinic who was interviewing for a faculty position. He is a lameness specialist in Lamesa Texas and he spoke about using a force plate to help with diagnosis. It was an amazingly eye opening talk. Basically the force plate is a mat on the ground you walk the horse over and a computer image is created of how the horse is loading its feet. Based on where weight is being put you can see where pain may really be coming from. He discussed a case of a horse who had been lame for years and seen by 5 different vets and the owner was where you are basically told him the horse was being put down if he couldn't get it happy. The horse has been injected previously in every conceivable joint and blocked everywhere but no diagnosis. He looked at conformation and found a few obvious things and then watched it move up a hill and it was more lame trotting up hill than down (kind of unusual) and then they ran the force plate, what this showed that they had not realized was that the horse was not putting any weight on one whole side of the lame foot. They blocked an area they thought might be effecting this and the horse was a little more sound up the hill and the foot started to load more. They took x-rays of every angle of the area and could find nothing but they narrowed it down to an area about 1 inch in diameter. Working with a specialist farrier they put special custom shoes on it and told her to have him shoe the horse every 4 weeks. The horse went sound and started winning reining competitions and then she decided to have her normal shoer do the horse and he put a wedge on it and it went lame. She took it back to the vet and at this point she decided to do an MRI and what they found was that there were adhesions between the tendon and the tendon sheath. He explained that this would be like having your elbow attached to your belly button, you could brush your teeth but brushing your hair would be painful. They did surgery to remove the adhesion's and the horse is currently sound. Surgery was in the month prior to the talk. Now I'm not saying this is what your horse has but force plates are not commonly used and if you don't even know where the lameness is coming from it might at least help pin point it. Lastly I will say that I have been involved with the decision to put down 2 horses due to lameness issues, both were young one 9 the other 12. The decision was very hard and emotional but has never regretted. Turn off your thinking brain, look your horse in the eye, open your heart and you will know what you need to do. Peace, Clair Independent Equine Nutritionist, Equilibrate Equine Consulting, www.equilibrateequine.com clair@equilibrateequine.com  Post a Response

Re: I missed the whole story Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 2:10 pm, in reply to "I missed the whole story" 12.104.134.130 Thank you! Thats an interesting idea! My chiro might be able to help me find a vet with the force plate if I were to try that. One of the reasons we believe its in her shoulder is because she gets a lot of swelling there when she is lame, plus its very atrophyed all the time. My very first vet that saw her flexed her in the shoulder and felt very stongly that that is where it was. Thanks for the suggestions!  Post a Response

Re: I missed the whole story Posted by 3 Bay Ranch on 9/17/2009, 8:56 pm, in reply to "I missed the whole story" 216.57.70.101 I bet that reining horse was insured...the procedure you describe is very intersting, but all the investigation they did likely ran up a sizeable bill. My horses are not insured by any group other than my checkbook. A friend of mine rides reining horses. Her animals are insured. She spent $10K last year diagnosing a lameness then doing stem cell therapy. That is great - but my checkbook would have ran dry way before we got close to the diagnosis.  Post a Response

Re: I missed the whole story Posted by Dr Thunes on 9/17/2009, 10:41 pm, in reply to "Re: I missed the whole story" 75.210.196.130 You are completely right. However in the scheme of things I doubt the force plate or showing were that expensive. The MRI and surgery would have been! It was an interesting case. I have no idea if the horse as insured but I do know that the owner did not want to do an MRI when she first saw this vet. However she was prepared to do one after they had managed to get the horse sound and he was winning. It is interesting how we all have our comfort zones and how we make decisions based on what we feel we will get out of it. Once this owner knew the horse could be made sound she was prepared to do more. Diagnostics are hard because you don't know if they will show anything but you do know they will cost a lot of money. Clair Independent Equine Nutritionist, Equilibrate Equine Consulting, www.equilibrateequine.com clair@equilibrateequine.com  Post a Response

Insurance Posted by SH on 9/19/2009, 3:34 pm, in reply to "Re: I missed the whole story" 24.130.220.142 is actually quite inexpensive and comes in very handy in these situations. For me, I can't imagine NOT getting available diagnostics as long as they are not invasive. We owe it to our horses. We all have our different limitations, but I guess I would think that if I commit to having a horse, I need to commit to providing basic medical care. I don't actually see the situation you describe above as either unusual or unreasonable.  Post a Response

4 Posted by Xanthoria on 9/17/2009, 1:50 pm, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 204.155.72.102 Sorry, I know it's hard but unless you can move quickly to diagnose and treat her successfully, she sounds like she is really suffering.  Post a Response

I'm just wondering if.. Posted by horsecreek on 9/17/2009, 2:00 pm, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 69.19.230.70 antibacterial/antifungal treatments such as White Lightning or ACV/Water or dilute Lysol have been used for her hooves? If they have not, I would try a series of White Lightning treatments and see if it helps at all. I don't think it could hurt. My best to you and your horse. I hope that you don't have to put her down. kathy  Post a Response

Re: I'm just wondering if.. Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 2:12 pm, in reply to "I'm just wondering if.." 12.104.134.130 No I have never tried that, what is it for?  Post a Response

It treats fungal / bacterial infections Posted by horsecreek on 9/17/2009, 2:41 pm, in reply to "Re: I'm just wondering if.." 69.19.230.70 that may have worked their way up into the hoof. Disease in the frog/hoof can be quite painful. The treatments are not caustic or painful, just a little time-consuming. I think they are worth it. I have a semi-tame donkey that had severe white line disease and was completely lame because of it (donkeys are very good at hiding their lameness until things are really bad). I did short soaks in dilute lysol using large margarine tubs just to get him to deal with having me treat his hooves. Then I did an hour long White Lightning treatment using the vapor boots. It made all the difference in the world and the damage is now half grown out. You might check Linda Cowles' site. She has some helpful info. It isn't quite as complicated if you use "dry bags" or the "vapor boots". I'll attach a link: Link: White Lightning  Post a Response

#4 and I'm sorry... Posted by StaceyS on 9/17/2009, 2:04 pm, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 67.169.225.31 I know you've done everything possible.  Post a Response

sound for 4 mths and suddenly very lame .. Posted by M on 9/17/2009, 2:05 pm, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 76.191.192.149 Check for abscess. The lameness may or may not be related to long term lameness issues.  Post a Response

Re: sound for 4 mths and suddenly very lame .. Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 2:14 pm, in reply to "sound for 4 mths and suddenly very lame .." 12.104.134.130 As much as I would love to think it could be something other then what was bothering her before (deffinatlly not an abscess) I don't. The last several times she went lame, her shoulder swelled up, and it has this time too. I don't see how an abscess could effect her shoulder like that, although horses work in strange ways! Thanks!  Post a Response

swollen shoulder not mentioned in op. Posted by M on 9/17/2009, 5:17 pm, in reply to "Re: sound for 4 mths and suddenly very lame .." 76.191.192.149 Maybe there will be more input as to how or if it can be diagnosed with more of the symptoms known. As to what you should do with her, that is purely your decision. You know the situation best. Hope there is improvement, at least no pain even if gimpy and needing flat land.  Post a Response

Very difficult Posted by Lizzie on 9/17/2009, 2:57 pm, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 99.37.225.190 It might be time to put her down as painful as that could be. If you did that she could cross over the Rainbow Bridge and not have to worry about going to a new place or getting used to new people--but most of all you don't want her going to slaugher. Wishing you strength and I know you will do what's best for your horse.  Post a Response

Re: Very difficult Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/17/2009, 3:09 pm, in reply to "Very difficult" 12.104.134.130 Thank you! Yes, giving her to a different home has lots of problems. Kezi is a very senistive horse that takes a while to get used to new people, and needs lots of attention! She also need someone who knows how to handle her, being a morab she is very smart. She is also has exreme seperaton anxiety, but is very mean to other horses in with her. She is a bit strange! Luckly for her I have a mini that just loves attention so much that he will put with anything from her! I those are all compelling reasons as to why she can't really go to another home unless its a really perfect situation. Thanks!  Post a Response

#4 or #5 ....sorry to hear this... Posted by mustangmom on 9/17/2009, 3:13 pm, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 68.164.94.103 I remember you posting about her before. If you donate to Davis, can you limit how they use her? Will they just put her down and then do an autopsy to determine what was wrong with her so that the vets/students can learn from her? If the trip to Davis would not be too painful/stressful, then I guess that's a good option. You've done a lot for her. I'm sorry you are in this situation. She is lucky to have you as her owner.  Post a Response

PS, from what I've heard, Russ Peterson knows his stuff. Posted by mustangmom on 9/17/2009, 5:21 pm, in reply to "#4 or #5 ....sorry to hear this..." 68.164.94.103 I'd be inclined to trust his findings.  Post a Response

Re: PS, from what I've heard, Russ Peterson knows his stuff. Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/18/2009, 10:44 am, in reply to "PS, from what I've heard, Russ Peterson knows his stuff." 12.104.134.130 Yes me too! Unfortunitly by the time I got her to see him I had already spent more then I really could on her, so all he did was look at her and the previous x-rays done on her.  Post a Response

I would want a solid diagnosis Posted by SH on 9/17/2009, 8:53 pm, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 24.130.220.142 before making a decision. Maybe I'm missing that part, but you need to know what is causing the lameness, then you can make an informed decision.  Post a Response

I would highly recommend the bone scan Posted by KEW on 9/18/2009, 8:41 am, in reply to "I would want a solid diagnosis" 173.67.121.240 Had one done on my guy to rule out fractures and you can see everything, it's amazing! I had mine done at the clinic in Los Olivos and they were absolutely fantastic. I think it will be easier on you to make the ultimate decision for her if you have additional information.  Post a Response

Re: I would want a solid diagnosis Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/18/2009, 10:52 am, in reply to "I would want a solid diagnosis" 12.104.134.130 That is my feeling too. However I have already done so many things, and every time I say this is the last one, if we dont' see anything this time we oviously are not going to find it. Going to the vets is very hard on Kezi. She is a very nervous horse and has issues trailering. While yes I would like to do the bone scan, even if I could afford it, can I afford doing the x-rays or ultrasounds then required to find out what is going on after that? More likely then not the bone scan is going to show us that there is pain somewhere deep inside her shoulder and we still won't know what is really wrong. For me, if her shoulder is swollen, then thats were the pain is, but shoulder x-rays show nothing. The only other thing that I can think of to do is an ultrasound of her shoulder to see what the tendons are looking like. But that has never been recomended by any of the vets. I am just not sure I can continue to do more diagonsing, both finacially and emotionally.  Post a Response

Well, it certainly is hard Posted by SH on 9/19/2009, 3:23 pm, in reply to "Re: I would want a solid diagnosis" 24.130.220.142 I don't really understand how anyone could have suggested that you should put down the horse a month after you got her. Horses get hurt and go lame; it happens all the time. Sometimes it's minor, sometimes it's life ending. I don't know if you had a thorough PPE, but even if the horse passed the PPE with flying colors, they still get hurt and go lame. It's the risk of having a horse. The one thing I'm confused about is that you said she wasn't wanting to bear weight - if I had a horse that lame, I would have the vet out and get the horse medicated. You can do that while you figure out a long term plan. I hope things work out for you and your horse, it sounds like a very difficult situation.  Post a Response

Re: Well, it certainly is hard Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/19/2009, 5:38 pm, in reply to "Well, it certainly is hard" 12.104.134.130 I was told a month after I got her that she had a major shoulder injury and to get rid of her, by my previous vet. I didn't agree with him telling me to do that without even any x-rays so I no longer use him. I will have her on pain meds, as soon as I can get them, my new vet is coming out very soon. I had intially waited in case the lameness got better quickly (it sometimes does) and because when I put her on pain meds she goes super nuts and sometimes hurts herself even worse. I probably should have gotten them before now, but I hate having horses on meds all the time, and she has already been on full dosage for several months in a row this year. Thanks  Post a Response

#4- Last I checked Davis isn't taking donations Posted by Sue on 9/18/2009, 6:55 am, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 99.196.64.56 I'm sorry, but I support you in doing what sounds like the right thing for this girl and not letting her suffer through a winter. ((hugs))  Post a Response

Davis Posted by heatheranne88 on 9/18/2009, 9:17 am, in reply to "#4- Last I checked Davis isn't taking donations" 72.166.1.162 I donated to Davis for lameness studies & a sarcoid studies (heartbreaking & still makes me tear up) but it has been over 12 yrs since I did this. He had been there for treatment/diagnosis before so they knew him and liked that he was well behaved & cooperative with students... It was between putting him down or Davis too. I am sorry prayers & good thoughts.  Post a Response

It sounds to me Posted by equestrian57 on 9/18/2009, 11:09 am, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 192.251.73.103 like you are done. I don't mean that in a bad way. Sometimes "done" is the best and wisest place to be. I know you will do what is best for your horse. Not everything can be fixed.  Post a Response

Re: It sounds to me Posted by mountaingirl89 on 9/18/2009, 11:48 am, in reply to "It sounds to me" 12.104.134.130 On the one hand I feel very done, on the other that feels like giving up for me, and I have a hard time with that even without that fact that I do really like this horse. Some people I know are amazed I have done so much for her since I have only had her a year, and she has been lame ever since her fist week with me. Some of them thought that I needed to put her down or get rid of her after the first month of no soundness. I am glad I didn't liston, but now maybe its time to make that decition myself. Thank you all! I have a lot to think about!  Post a Response

Re: Help with big decition with my lame mare? Posted by Whimsical Wizard on 9/24/2009, 12:06 am, in reply to "Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 67.180.249.33 I have a 30 year old ex-show pony (Jubilee) who is in very similar condition. She has a huge left knee, the result of overjumping by the previous owner and an accident on 4th of July where she tried to follow a warmblood over a 4ft fence. Luckily, I have a big flat pasture with two other horses including a benevolent boss mare. I keep her on a huge dose of MSM (hard to overdose on), beet pulp for weight, Lubrisyn (a hyuralonic liquid), and now Equioxx, a really great bute substitute. This is an expensive regimen, but all i can think of is how much this pony has done for all the kids who've ridden her and learned so much (and before us, neglected her joints!). The Equioxx is amazing, you can get a prescription thru your vet and then order thru KV Vet or some other online discount med place. My pony doesn't tolerate bute AT ALL, not even one dose, and is really thriving on the Equioxx, which is not an NSAID. She's not sound by a long shot but she's much more comfortable and actually bucked the other day (you almost could slip a piece of paper under her back hooves...hooray!). Good luck, it's all about making them comfortable and giving them lots of scratches where they itch, until their quality of life outweighs their desire to enjoy the sun and their pasturemates. A difficult decision, but one, at least, we get to make for those we love.  Post a Response

Equioxx Posted by equinept on 9/26/2009, 10:47 am, in reply to "Re: Help with big decition with my lame mare?" 76.126.88.69 Equioxx actually is an NSAID, just not as irritating to the kidneys and GI tract as Bute. It is a COX2 specific NSAID that more specifically targets pain/inflammation while mostly sparing COX1 which are involved in renal blood flow, GI mucosa, etc. Bute and the other NSAIDS available for horses are non specific COX1/COX2 hence why they are more likely to cause problems. It is a great drug though! Can provide a lot of relief for our friends, but can be $$. I don't think they've done any safety studies past 14d in horses though. Dogs have been studied for longer periods without problem though.  Post a Response

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