BAEN Message Board

Bucking Horse

Posted by rosalita208 on 4/30/2012, 1:04 pm
208.121.74.182

I've been exercise riding a 6-year old horse for a couple months. He has basic foundation training, is typically a pretty good citizen and has been going pretty well at all gaits in the arena and on trail. This weekend when I asked him to canter in the arena he bucked. It wasn't a woohoo buck it was defiant bucking. I put him in the round pen and worked him on the ground. He cantered fine in both directions with the saddle on in the round pen. Got back on him in the round pen, asked for the canter and buck buck buck. (I weigh 95 pounds and am a fairly good rider.) He eventually cantered nicely in both directions, but only when I would ride out the initial bucking, which escalated until he quit the bucking because I didn't come off and didn't quit asking for the canter. I tend to be someone who tries to think of things from the horse's point of view. This horse is not over worked. He's out in pasture running around when he's not being ridden so he's also not too pent up. So I have to think it's a mental issue and he was just refusing for no other reason than he didn't want to work. Although he seems perfectly fine physically we will probably have a chiro check him just in case. But I am also trying to think of strategies to get his mind right. I will continue doing more ground work exercises, but for him the ground work doesn't seem to be the solution. He will do everything fine as asked on the ground, then pull these stunts when someone is in the saddle. Thoughts?

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by Gail Ivey on 4/30/2012, 1:45 pm, in reply to "Bucking Horse"
66.245.25.244

My first horse let me know when he started to get ringbone. The first indication was that he pinned his ears when I asked for his right lead, but he loped off anyway. The second time I asked, he kicked out angrily (not defiantly - horses do not know defiance in that respect), and again loped off. He was a mature and well trained horse by then, so I figured it was physical. A couple days later, the vet was out doing shots so I had him do a quick lameness eval. He couldn't find anything wrong. So, I just rode him on trail for a few weeks, but about a month later, while riding down a hill, he threw his nose to the ground and inched his way down the hill. Then I KNEW he had a physical problem and called the vet out and asked him to take x-rays. His x-rays showed some bone remodeling and lollipops in the navicular bone. We treated with shoes and isoxuprine, but he still was not as sound. So, I took him to Steinbeck for some better x-rays, which showed full articular and periarticular ringbone.

From what you describe, I'd say the horse may have a physical issue. Considering the time of year and that he runs around in pasture, I'm going to guess a combination of tender feet and the resulting muscle soreness that can cause.

But if it's not, then I'd have to wonder where his thoughts are when being ridden. Does he look forward and carry himself forward at the walk and the trot? Perhaps he feels like he's being forced to comply with something and that ill feeling sets him off. There's not a lot of information to go on, and I'd probably have to see it for myself to make a reasonable judgment on it.

You might want to go and see Libby Lyman next weekend when she's in the North Bay. Or come down and see Ross Jacobs when he comes in June. I'll see if I can find out the particulars on Libby's clinic.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by rosalita208 on 4/30/2012, 3:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"

Thanks, Gail. I rode the horse the previous day at all gaits on the trail and he was fine. He was happy to run for a short stretch on the trail. Before taking him in the arena yesterday we went on a one hour trail walk. He took a rest from that and then I took him in the arena. I jogged him for about fifteen minutes before asking him for an easy canter. He didn't show any signs of lameness or discomfort at any time, while walking up and down slopes on the trail, while walking and trotting in the arena, or while being sent without a rider under saddle in the round pen. He generally has a nice forward feel physically. He's not lazy or a bracer. He's a bit of an introvert and doesn't join up as readily as others, does it kind of begrudgingly. I agree that something may have been bothering him, but I am not sure what, mentally or physically. After this happened I was told that he did this once before a few months ago. He was being walked around the arena under saddle by an experienced rider and tried to buck her off. This one is not what I would call a solid, well-trained horse to the extent I would know it must be physical. He is still on the young side and is still a bit green so it could be he is just not happy with being asked to work when he doesn't feel like working. I saw a mustang like that. She would get bored and start bucking, even at the walk. She had learned that she could make everything stop when she got the rider off. Only certain people could ride her that she respected. I would say in that case she was very much a boss mare and literally "throwing her weight around" in what I would call a defiant way. She was a big, strong mare and had no physical issues at all. The people she had respect for could ride her just fine. She took advantage of those she didn't respect if she got bored with a doing certain pattern in the arena or whatever. So I don't know about this one. He is not dominant in the pasture.

Maybe he had to pee?

Posted by KEW on 4/30/2012, 5:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
96.238.222.114

Sounds like you'd had him out for a while and I know my guy gets pretty backed off and unhappy if I'm riding and he has to go.

saddle fit?

Posted by mustangdeb on 4/30/2012, 6:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
76.102.63.31

does the saddle fit? was the pad shifting or bunching? a sticker on the girth or pad?

dental? bit fit?
Four Seasons Equine Wellness
Equine Craniosacral Therapy and Massage

Re: saddle fit?

Posted by rosalita208 on 4/30/2012, 8:02 pm, in reply to "saddle fit?"
67.160.239.2

His saddle fits. He had his teeth floated two weeks ago. I am pretty fastidious about checking back and girth before saddling. He is a puffer so sometimes the saddle does slip a bit. I try to cinch and recheck cinch but sometimes I have no choice but to straighten the saddle by pushing down on a stirrup. That is probably not the best thing for his back.

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by Stranger in Paradise on 4/30/2012, 6:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
72.14.90.94

My gelding gave me once many years ago a rodeo when I asked him to canter to the left. Two days later the chiropractor came and noticed that he had several ribs stuck on the right, probably from stepping into a hole out on pasture.
Apparently he tried to "unstuck" the ribs by bucking, because it hurt him to bend to the left. Scared me to death, but thankfully he never did it again....

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by Gail Ivey on 4/30/2012, 7:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
66.245.25.244

Another thing I noticed this weekend is that flies, bees and wasps are out. In fact, a student of mine was attacked by yellow jackets yesterday, and both she and her horse were stung several times. The other lady she was with was not stung, nor was her horse.

Anyway, to make a short story long, I had another horse that was really sensitive to being bitten by bugs - flies, mosquitoes, Heaven help me if he had ever been attacked by wasps. I was riding him in a Buck Brannaman clinic, and we were working cattle. It was in the evening, and the mosquitoes were starting to bother him. I knew that if I went to lope him, or just sent him out to work the cows with the mosquitoes biting him, he'd blow up from the irritation. So, I rode back to my trailer and soaked him in fly spray. He relaxed and worked well after that.

So, it's possible the horse could have been stung by a bee and something during the ride irritated the stung spot. That's something you'd expect a greener horse to do.

Again, it's one of those things that's just so hard to judge without seeing it.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by rosalita208 on 4/30/2012, 8:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
67.160.239.2

There are a lot of bugs and ticks out. Could be irritation from a bite. That doesn't explain his history of having a buck fit every once in awhile. Maybe that is how he expresses himself. I'mwilling to give him the benefit of the doubt. But in any case bucking is not appropriate way to communicate....

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by Gail Ivey on 4/30/2012, 8:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
66.245.25.244

Maybe bucking is all he thinks he has. Your example of the mustang that bucked when annoyed is a good one. If a horse says, "man, that doesn't feel good," and humps up, but the humping up isn't addressed, then he gives a little crow hop, and the little crow hop doesn't work, then he finally lets out a buck, and that works, then the next time he gets just a little annoyed, he may just skip over the humping up and crow hopping, since they didn't work, and go right to the buck.

My nephew was kind of like that as a young kid. He learned that the louder and harder he screamed and hollered, the more likely it was my sister would give in to his demand. So, after a while, he skipped over the asking, the whining, the fussing and went right straight to the loud screaming. Skip what doesn't work and go right to what does.

The thing about a horse, though, is that a horse is pretty honest. He may get to the thing that works pretty quick, but he's still going to start small enough to notice it before it gets to the thing that he thinks is going to work.

However, if the horse has a history of having a bucking fit every once in a while, and it's never worked, then he's not bucking because he thinks it's going to work. He's bucking because he doesn't know what else to do with the way he feels at that moment. That means he's communicating earlier that he doesn't feel good, and it escalates until he has to buck because he doesn't know what else to do.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by rosalita208 on 4/30/2012, 9:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"

So if they crow hop, or give a little buck, what do you do? Say good horse and put them away? Do you stop asking for the horse to go forward? Or do you continue to ask for the right answer, even though they are escalating to a buck?
We don't know if bucking has never worked for this horse, because he's six years old, has been at this ranch for a few months and we don't know what his training history is. He was trotting out very nicely with no complaints for 15-20 minutes. He enjoyed going into an extended trot from a western pleasure jog and seemed like he had a lot of life and forward movement. He wasn't complaining about anything, until I asked for a canter. Based on how nicely he was moving out it seemed to me he'd enjoy a canter. I got off him. I inspected him. I watched him canter in the round pen with his saddle on with no problem or hesitation. I had him change directions at the trot and canter and he did so fluidly with no hesitations. When I got back on and asked nicely for the canter he started bucking. He kept bucking until it was clear I wasn't coming off, then he cantered nicely, without any sign of strain or injury for about 10 laps around in the round pen. I didn't push him more than that or make a deal of it. Simply that cantering nicely was going to be a lot less work and energy than bucking. Other direction, same thing. He smoothed out and cantered fine in both directions when I rode through the bucking. So it is possible he didn't feel good, but it seemed to me that if he felt that bad he wouldn't feel relatively good doing all those other things, which he did just fine. So I agree that I will be more watchful to see what might be bothering this particular horse. But given the situation I don't think I should have gotten off him and taught him that he gets rewarded for bucking. Most horses are honest, but some are also clever and like to test. That is also naturally how they are in the herd. I appreciate all the advice and thoughts, and I would never ride or push a horse that I thought was suffering in any way. But it seems to me that if you are riding a relatively green horse and the horse is bucking you need to get through the bucking. I'm willing to put a lot of thought into it but getting off at that moment just felt to me like it would have been a huge mistake. I don't have a relationship with this horse like I have with my own horse, and I can definitely feel the difference. I also know that if this horse doesn't stop his bucking he is not going to find a home and place in this world with people. So I need to teach him how to be a good citizen, within reason. I don't expect him to canter around when he's hurting, but if he's a little off, or not in the moood, he has to make an honest effort to do as asked and work through it, just like I do when I have to go to work everyday and don't feel like it.

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by Gail Ivey on 4/30/2012, 10:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
66.245.25.244

Who said anything about getting off?

Anyway, like I said, it's a hard one to judge without seeing. Sounds like you did fine and you'll probably figure it out.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by rosalita208 on 4/30/2012, 10:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
67.160.239.2

I read some of Ross Jacobs blog. I like the philosophy of having the horse really connect with you. I'm going to try some of that type of groundwork with this horse. He does seem to be an introvert type. Building more of that kind of connection might help I think in this case...although he's just a ranch project horse and I'm just a part-time exercise rider for him. Ross Jacobs might help because he talks about "trying to figure out how to connect with a horse who is not connected at all, in a very short amount of time..."

Good

Posted by Gail Ivey on 4/30/2012, 11:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
66.245.25.244

Ross has been studying with Harry Whitney ever since I introduced them to each other back in 1998. If you can get down to see him when he comes in June, it should help a lot.
Good luck!
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Good

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/1/2012, 9:50 am, in reply to "Good"
208.121.74.182

My problem is when I ask for advice no one give actual, practical things that you could actually do when it comes to "connecting with the horse". It all sounds very nice but just telling someone to "connect better with the horse" doesn't really do much good. Is it like some secret knowledge that cannot be shared, unless you can make it to a clinic taught by some mystical leader who will then reveal all, which not all of us can do? I realize a lot of this is experiential and situational, but certainly there are actual, practical things that could be suggested. Try this, try that. Look for this, look for that. Instead it's all abstract mystic kind of talk.

That's only because

Posted by Gail Ivey on 5/1/2012, 11:08 am, in reply to "Re: Good"
66.245.25.244

our crystal balls all got broken!!
A horse's expression means everything, and if you cannot read the horse's expression because you're not there to see it, you can only guess what to do. The horse deserves better than that.
Ray Hunt said, "You can't turn a dial and have it all work."
Tom Dorrance said, "It's not, do this to get that. You adjust to fit the situation."
Every top horseman I've ever met has said something to the effect of how everything can change from one second to the next and what might be fitting in this moment is worthless in the very next moment, and there is no way at all a person could explain what to do in each moment through a message board on the internet. It's not possible.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: That's only because

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/1/2012, 11:14 am, in reply to "That's only because"

I understand that. However, there must be simple exercises that you can use to at least try and build a connection with a horse you do not know, or that has a hard time connecting. Where would you start that process? Do you just stand in the round pen doing nothing, watching the horse's expression, hoping it will connect with you?

We all want happy horses. We also all want horses that don't behave badly. I guess at certain points in the training I realize I'm not going to have a happy horse, because part of training is that the horse is doing things it would prefer not to be doing. Just like I do every day at my job.

Tom Dorrance also said if you have this knowledge, and someone asks, freely share it, for the good of the horse.

Sorry it is just frustrating when people say they have these special skills but then you get to the part of what to actually do or try and there's nothing there unless you give your credit card. It's just like an advertisement.

Re: That's only because

Posted by nicole m on 5/1/2012, 12:02 pm, in reply to "Re: That's only because"
68.32.68.52

When I have worked with a horse that I was not well connected with I have presented them with things that are a bit scary to them while working them in the roundpen. For example , my arab is afraid of plastic. Something that i found really solidified our bond was to bring big plastic garbage bags in with me and tie them to the end of the lunge whip. Make a bunch of noise and get her moving. Keep the pressure with the bag/lunge constant until she starts to calm down. When shes licking and chewing, or in her case ears on me, I ask her to come in. I rub her in circular motions on her chest and neck. ( Parelli Friendly game) and see how close I can get with the bag. At first shes spooky, but after a while/few sessions I can rub her all over with the bag, leave it hanging and blowing over her neck. Tie it to her saddle or halter whatever. I always go slowly and always rub her inbetween each thing I ask of her. I have found helping her get over something shes afraid of has helped her put more trust in me, and more trust in my choices. I also when I have time, always try to do a bit of free roundpen work and a bit of joining up exercises. Just 10 min and I feel like shes a lot more connected with me when I ride.

Its also finding out what the individual horse likes. She pretty much hates arena work, shes willing and compliant but you can tell she doesn't enjoy herself. She much rather go on a trail ride, and even better bareback. So I make sure that we do a few things she likes a week and not have it be all about what training goal I am trying to reach.

Sharing - very long

Posted by Gail Ivey on 5/1/2012, 12:28 pm, in reply to "Re: That's only because"
66.245.25.244

"Do you just stand in the round pen doing nothing, watching the horse's expression, hoping it will connect with you?"

That's a really good place to start.

Here's an exerpt from Tom Moate's new book - "Further Along the Trail" which documents more progress with his understanding of horses after meeting Harry Whitney (italics are mine):

"I think one of the neatest things within that," Harry says about setting up the search, "if you have a horse that doesn't have good feelings about humans is for people to see that a horse would search out a whole bunch of things in that pen before he ever looked you up.
"We chase them around and around and create enough misery out there on the rail, and then we create a vacuum that they get sucked into. If people see that you can sit on the fence, in a chair on the ground... and do something obvious to let a horse know that whatever they're working at is not going to work out, pretty soon they will come and be with you. And they will take an interest, and their eyes will be open. It can take a couple, three hours - and if people ever see that I think it changes how they handle the round pen. ... Because, in essence, that is getting the horse to come up within themselves something that will work - and when they realize that the only thing that will work is to be with the human, it just changes their whole outlook.
"But it changes the human's outlook on how the horse has this capability within them. That they will choose this. We don't have to impose it on them like we do. So within understanding that they want this, they will work at this - it changes your approach and to understand how a horse goes through searching and comes up with an answer that they own for themselves. So all these things end up changing how people approach getting a horse to figure something out."

The above quote from a discussion I (Tom Moates) had with Harry sums up not only quite a bit about setting up a search in a horse but also why demonstrating it to people in a clinic setting is beneficial. I'll go out on a limb (more like a big sturdy branch) and say I figure most horse folks never witness a horse given the time and opportunity to undergo a free search with the human.
...
Without humans understanding how to set up a search in their approach to asking things of a horse, the benefit is lost because the horse doesn't get to carry that opportunity home from a clinic.

Oh, and that was BILL Dorrance, not Tom, who talked about sharing, but even good old Bill charged people to come to his clinics. Thirty bucks never broke anyone who is committed to learning.

"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Thank you everyone

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/1/2012, 1:33 pm, in reply to "Sharing - very long"
208.121.74.182

Thanks for all the suggestions. That is helpful.

Time Not Money

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/1/2012, 3:06 pm, in reply to "Sharing - very long"

For some people it's the luxury of having enough time that is lacking, not the money... I have a FT job, need weekend time to spend with my own two horses, which are boarded an hour from where I live, so I don't get to see them during the week.

I don't have the time to short my own horses, which I have a good relationship with, to go to clinics to help these others newbies that I am trying to do my best to help in the few hours I have with them once or twice a week. I don't like to think the newbies are doomed because I don't have enough time. I like to think I can help them in some small way, with a little bit of the consistent time I give them week over week.

Thanks everyone!

Those darn jobs! LOL

Posted by Gail Ivey on 5/1/2012, 4:35 pm, in reply to "Time Not Money"
66.245.25.244

Yeah, I hear ya! I remember working full time in a computer job when I was but a "child." LOL I once called in "sick" so I could stay at a clinic I'd been to over the weekend, since that Monday we were going to be playing with cattle.
There were times I'd get off work and head out to the barn and only had time and energy to turn my horse out and watch him for an hour. But, I learned a lot by doing that, too.
When I quit working full time to start my training business (and the old saying, "the best thing about working for yourself is you only work half days and it doesn't even matter WHICH 12 hours you work" rang true for me), it was a real juggling act to start off with three horses including mine, and three part time jobs. My horse always got the short end of the stick. The shoemaker's children go barefoot, ya know. Once I could get my horses to become working partners, they'd get plenty of attention during my workday. It's true that a lot of what you learn, you just have to learn by doing. But it helps to be able to get away for a day or two - one weekend out of 52 isn't going to deprive you or your horses of anything - just to see some of what you're trying to grab hold of.

Stick with it. I love your passion for trying to learn and understand.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: That's only because

Posted by mustangdeb on 5/1/2012, 1:26 pm, in reply to "Re: That's only because"
76.102.63.31

Leslie Desmond's book would be a good place to start. There are ground work exercises in here that you can play around with to help with bonding and training. It's just the little things. I'm not a trainer but i play around with this stuff and it opens up the lines of communication.

http://www.lesliedesmond.com/index.php?id=79
Four Seasons Equine Wellness
Equine Craniosacral Therapy and Massage

But we don't necessarily...

Posted by Tauna on 5/1/2012, 3:15 pm, in reply to "Re: That's only because"
63.249.97.149

Have happy horses by having no expectations, either. I know plenty of very minimally-handled horses living the "good" life that are downright miserable in themselves. It is true that a horse won't be happy in every moment of training. But it should improve. Horses are not like us - they are only happy and comfortable when they know who is their leader. I can't say I've ever known a horse that wouldn't prefer to give up the leadership role. They don't demand it, they don't want it. But if the human in their presence isn't up for the job, the horse will take over. Or at least, tune the human out. Some horses have a higher standard for giving up that role, than others.

Just because a horse gets pissy and frustrated, that doesn't mean they're unhappy. They're often expressing their displeasure about their confusion. If you clear up the confusion and get them finding the answer you're looking for, the "happiness" should return. If it doesn't, even if you get the physical action you desired, then something went wrong in the training. A horse's thoughts and emotions are just as important as any other aspect, if not more important.

That's what makes this so difficult to convey over the internet. Without us seeing this taking place, all we can do is guess about what was going on. There's no way to give an exercise or a drill to fix the issue. There are many, many ways of asking a horse to connect in. I just had a lesson today - mostly about being the most important thing in my mare's life. We went from very, very big actions to the tiniest of movements - back and forth (hundreds of times?) between all my options over a couple of hours. What worked best could only be determined *in that very moment*. This is a skill like any other that I've been working on for well over a decade, and I'll be working on it 'til the day I die. But I don't have a clue how to tell you over the internet how to do it in person. It's not an exercise, not a prescription. Those things will only get you the mechanical compliance, which it sounds like this horse already has down well enough. I don't think it's about selling something. I just think that to get more out of a horse, this type of training is something that must at least be seen in person. A horse that responds to a thought with pure willingness is a huge joy. Not to mention, so much safer. It can appear nit-picky, because you really do have to get back down to the basics. Everything that can go wrong, goes wrong at the most basic, beginning level.
Santa Cruz Mountains, Ben Lomond
http://ironfreehrs.com/

Re: But we don't necessarily...

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/1/2012, 5:18 pm, in reply to "But we don't necessarily..."

I agree it's a constant learning process and partly a guessing game for the human who is trying to understand each and every unique horse.

I also agree that you can't always have a specific plan. I tend to think I am pretty adaptable in that sense. But with a horse you don't know so well maybe you are not reading things the best way.

Reno does what you describe, and I can read him really well. He'll paw and express confusion or irritation when he's faced with something new or that confuses him. Or he'll drag when he's getting bored. And Reno has also "taken control" of a situation, especially with his mustang instincts, mainly in the form of bolting off, which I've had to work through with him by getting him to trust my leadership more and more. And there have been days here and there when I can tell he just doesn't feel right, maybe he has a bunch of bug bites at the beginning of the season or whatever, before I start spraying him, and so I let him have the layoff and don't make him do anything until he feels better the next day. But where we are at now, Reno will also do what I ask for the most part even if he doesn't feel like it, or it isn't his favorite exercise to do. He will give a fair try, knowing that I know it isn't his favorite thing, but also knowing I'll give him something good that he likes at some point while we are together.

This other horse felt to me like he had more of an angry resistance energy in him when I asked him to canter, which he certainly knows how to do, as I've done it on him a couple other times.

I guess part of the issue is knowing when to quit. You never know if you've gone a little too far, until the horse maybe throws a fit, and then you have to finish it off, and get back to a good place before you end up.

Now I kind of wish I didn't ask this horse to canter, because he was going so nice before I asked for that. We could have ended up fine without any cantering. And maybe then this week he would have gone fine at the canter because this week he'd be in a better mood for it.

But when I did and he refused, I had to get all the way through it with him, and push him past that refusal. I didn't see any other way to go. I gave him a number of opportunities to make a different, easier choice. I did a few one rein stops and let him try again. I got off and let him work under saddle in the round pen, and took a couple breaks and let him stand think about it, and just hang with me while I chatted with someone who came by the round pen. But in the end it came down to a bit of a showdown, in this case. Because every time I got back on and asked for the canter he bucked. He was determined to refuse. So my decision at that point was he was fit enough to do it, and I couldn't let him be rewarded for that choice, or I would have been creating a bigger problem and that's the kind of horse that will hurt someone and end up in a kill pen.

The main point is next week when I go back I want to think about how to spend a little bit of different kind of time with him to see if we can get to a better place without all this fuss. Or maybe I'll try to get out there tomorrow for an hour and just hang out. We shall see how our little bucker does!

Re: But we don't necessarily...

Posted by Stranger in Paradise on 5/1/2012, 6:57 pm, in reply to "Re: But we don't necessarily..."
72.14.90.94

It sounds to me like you started a fight with him over something rather simple. He told you with his first buck, that something was wrong (either mentally or physically), you took it as refusal and pushed him anyway. He being a horse had to either react in fight or flight, which he did. So the whole thing in the end escalated.
This ancient thinking that you can't quit on something like this is in my opinion what causes the most problems, because we usually lose the perspective that there are many ways that lead to Rome. Do you think, that in the end he understood why you did what you did? Do you think he knows now not to buck anymore in the canter?
Whenever I encounter a situation that could be seen as resistance, I try to get to the source of the problem with exercises. In his case I would probably try some leg yields in the walk to get the hind legs more engaged and then asked him for a short canter again. Or I would have worked in the trot in the counter bend for a while, again to activate the outside hind and then asked again. And only for a few strides. There are many more exercises you could try and at least you didn't pick a fight! I don't think you teach a horse to buck if you back off and try different things instead. After all, he started the communication, it's your choice to turn it into a fight or not...Just my 2 cents...

Re: But we don't necessarily...

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/1/2012, 10:20 pm, in reply to "Re: But we don't necessarily..."

I appreciate the feedback. But I did try quite a few different things to change his mind and got the same response. Maybe I don't know enough things to try, so I am trying to learn more. This horse has a history of bucking. I don't know how he developed the notion to buck because I don't know his early training. I'm just trying to help him. I do think he learned something, because he cantered fine for a short time in both directions at the end, as requested. When he agreed to work with me I kept it short, walked him out a little and ended up nice enough. I believe he learned that he can't make everything stop by tossing the rider, and doing what is asked will be less work for him than throwing a fit. I was happy to accommodate him and just accept a little bit of the right thing. But he had to give me something of what I was asking for, other than a buck before I quit, once he decided to go down that road. He made that decision - to try and toss me off. I wasn't angry at him. But if he went down that road of taking control of the situation in that harmful way he had to get the message that was not right. I do think he needs more connection work, and to build more trust. He needs more foundation work, for sure. And I need to pay closer attention to him and learn how to read him better. I will check him over more carefully physically, even though I do try to be careful in general I will be more careful with this one. I'll let you know next week when I work with him again. For the most part I've had a pretty good experience with this horse over the past few weeks, but from what I have been told after a few rides with the other exercise riders he has also tried to buck them off. He did it once on trail, and another time in the arena. Both times the riders were surprised because he had been going so nicely and they had ridden him before and felt good and confident with him and liked him. They were surprised he would try to get them off, as I was. The other people who have ridden him are light and sensitive and experienced riders who love and care a lot about horses. We aren't a bunch of crazy, whipping old cowboys. I asked about him today and was told vet has looked at him recently and thought he was fine. He is a good horse for the most part. We are all trying to figure him out, to help him, for his own good, so he can have a life with people, as I don't know what other life would be available to him if he can't learn to live in our world and be a safe, reasonable riding horse.

Believe me...

Posted by Stranger in Paradise on 5/2/2012, 8:39 am, in reply to "Re: But we don't necessarily..."
72.14.90.94

I've been down that exact road many times with my own gelding. He didn't buck as much as he bolted, whenever "he felt like it". I reacted the exact same way as you, because you can't let him get away with it. Then we noticed that he usually does it when there is a weather change coming up. No other signs of not feeling well. We never found out what was really bugging him, but today I think that he might have had ulcers. Back then (he's 23 now) one thought you have to ride horses on an empty stomach. Now it's known, that when you do this, stomach acid can splash on the upper unprotected parts of the lining and cause ulcers, especially when riding faster gaits. So if there are already ulcers (which over 60% of all horses have), it might burn quite a bit....Now that's only one of thousand more possible reasons, I just don't think horses do it to get out of things, unless they hurt...Good luck!

bucker versus a bolter

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/2/2012, 9:41 am, in reply to "Believe me..."

My mustang had some bolting spells when I first took him out on trail. Just anxiety and a strong mustang run for your life instinct. The thing about his bolting is I always felt that at least he was taking me with him. We need to get out of here. So I realized he had to have trust in me, that I would never put him in a place where he needed to run for his life. But also I needed to teach him, through feeling his energy and checking him with the one rein stop, that bolting was not the right choice, and he was not going to be able to run off, because I said he could not run off, end of story. He had to respect that decision I was making for the both of us, in our partnership. He is doing really well know.

Versus our little bucker who is basically trying to get rid of you... which is why I am thinking with this one he needs to get more connected to people. AND learn that bucking is not the way to let us know he's not happy about something. We will pay attention and listen, and he can communicate in a less aggressive way. And sometimes he is going to have to do things he doesn't want to do, or doesn't feel like doing, and he'll get ample rewards and thanks if he works with his rider with a more willing attitude and some compromise on his part.
I do feel for him and what he must have felt like needing to buck. That is why I am writing so much about it here. I have a lot of empathy for this guy and what he is feeling and trying to say. I wish I knew where he came from and really do wonder what kind of training and treatment he had previously.

I may go out to the ranch after work today just to say hello.
Well I am certainly learning a lot of lessons about bolting and bucking this year.

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by sindari on 5/2/2012, 11:14 am, in reply to "Bucking Horse"

My Arabian gelding is 15 and has not had much canter work. He kicks out every now and again when he is asked. This morning was a good example. He pinned his ears and kicked out- lurched himself into the canter. I didn't react one way or the other. My trainer says to note the reaction and continue. Just long enough to see if it is confusion, physical, or not wanting to do it. I asked for transitions from canter to trot so he could see it was no big deal, I did some leg yields across the arena and asked for the canter in the opposite direction. I asked for haunches in on the long side in both directions, several easy turns on the forehand. I asked again-he was not being forward and did the same pinned ears.I picked up a crop and asked for his inside hind to come under himself. I also let him gallop down the long side to show him he can have fun. After the crop reminded him nicely to balance himself off he went with his ears up- offering to canter. He was happy. He just needed support in a calm happy way to guide him to know that he can use his inside hind to make the gait more comfortable for him. Is this any help to you?
I also patted him and told him good boy when he was trying. Praise is so important

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/2/2012, 6:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"

I think this is a different deal, because this is a young horse, with a good bit of go. He's not confused or unsure about what to do with himself in that he knew what was being asked and knows how to do it. So that leaves physically uncomfortable or "don't want to do it." The general observation at the time was he didn't seem physically uncomfortable, although I will continue to leave that open as a possibility. I did a fair bit of changing things up, some more assertive than others, in terms of making him move around, turn and move out, just in case it was some yayas he needed to let go of, and even took a couple breaks just to hang out with him not doing much, followed by "nice asks" for a canter and the answer when I asked for the canter was buck, buck, buck. The thing is the first time he bucked he took me by surprise and did get me off balance so it almost did work for him to "end it." I hate to put people's ideas onto a horse, but after that I think he thought it could work so he kept trying until it was clear I wasn't coming off. After that first time, after I tried a bunch of "change your mind things" I realized his answer was going to be the same and I was ready to ride it out. When I continued to ride for a canter in spite of the buck buck buck he straightened out, gave up the buck and cantered nicely. So I believe it was some mental stickiness "don't want to" going on. But it is perplexing. I can come up with a lot of theories. It was later in the day and maybe he thought it was close to dinner time and didn't want to work anymore. (He's in a pasture but they also throw hay at the end of the day.) One can never be sure what the horse is actually feeling, we can only do our best to observe and hope we are making the right conclusion. It does seem to me that bucking is a desperation move for a horse, so I take that seriously in terms of what made him feel so desperate. Maybe I'm dwelling on the whole thing too much, but I want to find the way to make him comfortable whether it was physical or mental. I'm sure he's not thinking about it like I am! But thanks for your description, everything helps because it does make you think of all the things you could try.

Re: Bucking Horse

Posted by sindari on 5/2/2012, 6:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"

Our horses are so lucky to have us- I worry about mine way too much. I am having Mehrdad come out on Sunday to check the saddle fit. My horse was protesting and worried. I was very grateful to see your threads since I had just had the bucking issue pop up again. I gave a sigh of relief that I was not the only one dealing with this issue. My horse doesn't act out as much as yours but like you said you don't know your guy's history. I know most of my horse's life story- I have had him for two years. We will keep each other posted on our progress, okay?
Congrats for staying on!

That "don't want to" attitude

Posted by Gail Ivey on 5/2/2012, 7:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse"
66.245.25.244

When I see a horse that expresses he doesn't want to do something, there is no doubt in my mind he has a good reason not to want to do it. There is either a physical issue, or the horse lacks clarity on what is expected of him, or, if there is clarity, it's a clarity that comes with worry. Imagine if you were afraid of snakes and someone held up a snake told you to pet it. You might say, "OH, HELL NO!" and run the other way. Or you might say, "Uh, no, I don't really want to do that," and stick your hands behind your back, depending upon your level of worry and how well you trust the person holding the snake. If there were previous times in your life someone threw a snake at you, which is what caused the fear in the first place, you might do the run away thing. But, if you basically trusted people, but just didn't like snakes, you'd feel free to say, "No, thanks, don't want to," and expect that would be the end of it.

How would you feel, then, if the person said, "No, you HAVE to touch the snake. I don't CARE how you feel about it, you HAVE to, because we can't go on our camping trip together if you're going to freak out every time you see a snake." The person presented a reasonable expectation of why it matters that you should pet the snake. Does that change how you feel about it? If you were a horse, you have no comprehension about the "camping" part, because you live in the moment with no idea of any promise of good outcome if you "pet the snake."

So, it's up to the person to present the idea of petting the snake that makes you WANT to pet the snake. How can you present an idea to a horse of something he is going to need to do anyway, and do it in a way that he WANTS to do it?

In getting clarity, you may have to press the issue. In the OP's case here, she rode through the bucks to get to the canter. Sometimes that is going to be necessary to do just to get the clarity that "this" means "canter."

But a lot of people stop right there in working on it. They got a canter, canter is what they wanted, and so how the horse felt after that, who cares? Got the canter. And maybe there was enough clarity the horse will canter every time from now on. Maybe the horse will obediently, mechanically and unhappily canter every time, on the dot, as expected. Because that is what happens when you don't get clarity and a good feeling inside the horse about it.

Building the "want to" part of the horse is about feeling what's going on inside of him, and he knows he has time to work something out, that he isn't just being compelled to do something. Get him to think cantering was his idea in the first place, and suddenly, he wants to canter!

Now, the OP wanted some concrete examples or exercises and there is one I've used I learned from one of those fellows that got mentioned. It goes like this - ask the horse to trot out big, then bigger, don't ask for the canter, just see how big he can trot. It's not big enough, trot BIGGER!!! Not big enough, trot bigger!! That's as big as you can trot? For how long? Depending on the horse, it won't be long before he says, "cantering would be easier, so I'm going to canter." I've seen some horses pick up the idea before they've completed a lap of the arena. I've seen other horses take ten minutes or more to even consider trying to canter. But if you can make it that long, to the point where it was the horse's idea to canter in the first place, then it's not long before the horse feels the energy of the trot start to get bigger and offers that idea of cantering. It becomes his idea, and then he feels better inside about the canter.

The only reason I mention that little exercise is that I see a lot of folks ask for the canter when the horse's body isn't positioned correctly to pick it up with good balance. I remember one horse in particular that felt so unbalanced cantering on one lead that no matter how good your timing was at asking for that lead, he'd always put in a quick half step and pick up the other lead. A lot of it had to do with how bad he felt inside before he even got to the canter. As soon as that horse relaxed and it was his idea to pick up that lead, all of his balance issues just disappeared. He just needed to mentally feel better about it. He needed to feel like it was his idea and not something he was being compelled to do.

And that's the whole idea right there. Horse don't do things because they "don't want to" until after someone's made that thing difficult and unpleasant for them to do, not necessarily by being cruel or forceful, but just by insisting with poor timing and not allowing the horse to find his balance and have it become his idea. If you work on how the horse feels about what you're asking, and have it become his idea, you won't ever see him say, "I don't want to."

Unless, of course, he sees the vet coming...
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: That "don't want to" attitude

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/3/2012, 8:40 am, in reply to "That "don't want to" attitude"

I appreciate all that feedback and detail. I do agree that in most cases a horse has a good reason - fear, anxiety, physical discomfort, lack of balance, mental stress - for saying no. I like the canter exercise idea and I will try that on the little bucker next time if there is a next time which I hope there won't be but there probably will be...
But I also think that when it comes to doing what humans ask of them, horses do also have opinions and sometimes that opinion is I would rather be doing something else, like eating grass, or rolling in that nice sand, or playing with my buddies, or standing where my buddies are standing, etc.
My little mustang was a bracer, a bracer since he was nine months old when I got him. And because he was so cute, and I loved him so much, and I was so gentle and concerned about everything that I did with him, that by the time he was old enough to ride, he had no go in him whatsoever. After I moved him to a new barn closer to where I live, the trainer decided start with ponying the little mustang without a rider, by a big strong mare, just to get him used to moving when asked. When she said walk and he said no, she would change his mind soon enough, by nipping at him and dragging him until he kept up with her, if that's what was needed. He put up a couple fights, then went along with her nicely when he saw she was the boss and he had better listen to her because it was no fun otherwise. And amazingly enough it was actually more fun to just go out with her, keep up, travel around and see some of the world. I can assure you my mustang was not in pain, was not afraid, had no physical issues prohibiting him from walking, knew full well that he was being asked to walk (after all it was another horse talking to him), and he was just refusing because he had his own opinions and he didn't want to. Because he figured just standing there was a lot less energy than doing anything (and mustangs have a lot of energy conservation instinct.) Because then maybe he'd just get petted and loved on instead of having to do anything. He was a smart little guy, and still is. I still love him dearly and I can read him like a book, and I do try to keep things fun and interesting so he "wants" to do do things. But I'll never forget the look on his face the first time when that mare nicely said we are going and he said nope. I was definitely, "Who says? I don't want to." And she then not very nicely responded by saying, "Yes, you do want to, because I say you want to."
But that's just Reno. Even in the pasture he's quite the calculating little horse, among the other horses. He's the only mustang in his pasture herd and is half the size of some of the horses. He's friends with pretty much everyone, and has always got a position among the top tier of the bunch. He doesn't want to be a leader, but he wants to be the leader's best friend, and figures out how to make the leader accept having this little pony sidekick. Mostly he gets his way by, you guessed it, just standing there and not moving when another horse tries to move him off. He just acts like he didn't even notice that other horse is telling him anything, although clearly he has observed the pinned ears or felt the nudge. "I'm no threat to you buddy, I'm just hanging out, chillin'." Not moving has worked pretty well for him in a lot of situations. My teacher always says "I wouldn't want to play chess with Reno."

Good story

Posted by Gail Ivey on 5/3/2012, 9:45 am, in reply to "Re: That "don't want to" attitude"
66.245.25.244

And a good example of having clarity. Yep, you give most horses the opportunity to express their opinion, and a lot of the time that opinion is, I'd rather go back to pasture and eat. That's even a better example than I gave of how important it is to create that want to attitude. Once the horse believes that being with you is a better option than going back to his pasture to eat, that he willingly brings his head up out of the food to come with you, and he doesn't feel compelled to do that, you know you've got that want to attitude working for you.

If that little mustang had not learned to brace before you got him, maybe a lot the trouble he ended up going through to get him to be a better citizen wouldn't have been necessary. They're not born with that brace in them. It's put there by a lack of clarity (usually by improperly using butt ropes on foals, although in the case of the mustang, more likely by being shoved into a chute, if he was wild caught), which is what the trainer and her mare ended up having to get.

I'd be interested in knowing what Mr. Bucker would do if you just put him in the round pen and sat down and did nothing.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Good story

Posted by rosalita208 on 5/3/2012, 5:42 pm, in reply to "Good story"

My little mustang will freely walk over to me in the pasture most of the time. Not always, but most of the time. And he certainly never runs away. I made a lot of mistakes with him, as he was my first horse. I still make mistakes. But nonetheless I think he knows that I have his best intentions at heart and have a great feeling for him. (Whether horses feel love like people do is debatable, I think.) Plus he is a social butterfly with people as well as horses - curious and friendly, wants to be friends with everyone. As a young horse I always felt that he thought it was odd that his people would come and go, because if you are part of the herd why wouldn't you all stay together all the time? But he came to accept it. All the things you are saying, Gail, make me really conscious of that relationship I have with Reno and remind me not to take advantage of it or treat it carelessly. But treasure it and keep cultivating it.
As for the bucker I will try just hanging out with him. I can just sit in the round pen with him for a spell. I'm happy to do that. It is true that riding is so much fun a lot of the time we are just thinking of how much fun it is to take the horse out and go for a ride, hit the trail, or whatever. Just hanging out with them is sure nice also.

Re: That "don't want to" attitude

Posted by sindari on 5/6/2012, 6:23 pm, in reply to "That "don't want to" attitude"
71.132.204.199

Mehrdad came out to check his saddle fit. I hadn't ridden him since our not wanting to canter nicely morning. I felt he might be telling me something like Gail suggested. I worked him on the ground and he was happy in the canter so that was another clue that it was the saddle. Bingo- his saddle needs re flocking and he was a little sore in his back. Mehrdad said his reaction to the canter request was a big clue his saddle wasn't fitting. Cedar has one of the most difficult backs. At least, I can get it checked and corrected easily now that I have a saddle maker on my team

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