BAEN Message Board

Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/2/2012, 10:30 pm

Awhile ago I wrote about a horse that bucked in the arena, or at least was kicking out pretty hard. It's been almost two months. So we've had two chiropractic treatments and two massages on our little friend, and he has been blessed by both practitioners as feeling good. Vet has seen him also. We've given him pretty much a semi-layoff to relax while he's been having these beauty treatments.

Our little friend still puts up a fit after about 20 minutes of riding in the arena. (Never fusses on the trail.) I just wanted to give this update for people who felt a horse only bucked or kicked out due to physical issues. This horse has been certified by vet, masseuse and chiro as not having physical issues. Still bucking when he decides his time is up in the arena. He's not being ridden hard in the arena, either. Just trotting nicely in varied patterns, usually with other horses, alternating with walking. He's not confused. He knows what you are asking, because he will do it nicely for about 20 minutes, then quits by throwing a fit. He's far from tired out. He gets walking rest breaks between the trotting. We're not even cantering on him.

Anyway, the plan is to keep working the horse on trail as much as possible, and continue having good experiences in the arena, and trying to extend those arena experiences timewise, little by little.

But at some point, I have to say, instead of having the horse decide when to quit the lesson by bucking, we will need to address the decision this horse is making to end the arena work on its timetable by deciding to kick out, run sideways and do all out it can to quit the rider after about 20 minutes. Otherwise this horse is just not safe. The rider will go along fine and then screw you, horse throws a little fit, which becomes a bigger fit, if rider continues to cue him forward when he has decided he's done. This is a pretty deeply embedded issue in this guy. And I think quitting when he says quit is only going to make it worse.

Escalating into a fight isn't the answer either. But we have to end on him doing the right thing, not we leave the arena after you threw a fit and you got your way. Winter is coming. We won't always be able to exercise him by riding on the trail like we can now. When it's raining he's going to have to get worked in the arena.

I've been watching the Chris Cox videos on dealing with a bucking horse. He says some horses just get in the habit of bucking for whatever reason. Either it's in their nature or it's worked for them as a strategy to end the work session. I believe Chris Cox has a good approach. You need to teach a horse to make good decisions ie not bucking, even when the horse is feeling a little bored, a little bothered, or gets tired of complying with your reasonable requests. You've got to find the place where he's a little uncomfortable, resorts to the bucking, but then teach the horse that it's an ineffective strategy. Only when he complies and acts nicely does the work stop. Not to shut the horse down, but to get him to make a better choice. Be with the person and end on a good note together.

This is expert level retraining and relaying of the foundation.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by Gail Ivey on 7/2/2012, 10:46 pm, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"
66.245.46.208

Did the vet check his teeth? I'm going to assume his teeth are fine, although that's one of those things I never believe unless I feel it for myself or one of my favorite dentists confirms it.

So, the horse is "fine" for about 20 minutes and then he starts bucking. If you were to start your ride doing trot and canter transitions almost immediately, would he buck at the beginning? Or would he still let some time go by before the bucking starts.

Chris rode a horse that was spoiled into bucking at Expo a few years back. It was fun to watch him, since Chris has a great sense of humor. The horse was pretty tight and worried at first, but as he got more used to things, he started to try to end them, and that's when he started bucking. But one of the things that was pretty obvious in the way the horse changed was that the horse didn't have his thoughts with Chris at all in the beginning. By the end, he was more with him, but still only a little, and only when Chris asked something of him. It was a big change for that horse, though.

I'm going back to something I said previously about the situation in general, since I can't see the horse. Horses don't buck because they feel good inside, at least, not under these circumstances. This isn't a fresh from winter layoff youngster who doesn't want to settle down and stop playing. This is a horse who feels like bucking is is only answer to get something to stop so that he can feel better. So, when you approach the situation, think about how you can make the ride more fun and enjoyable for the horse.

The other end of it is a no brainer. The horse should not finish a ride by being untacked, fed and put away. Find another job for him to do after the ride is over, or let him stand saddled somewhere until he falls asleep. If he wants the ride to be over, it's only because he thinks he has something better waiting for him.
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by dobegal on 7/3/2012, 7:56 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
166.250.32.157

How about trying to end the arena riding before he bucks? If he is consistent with 20 minutes as being his limit, maybe set a timer and quit while he is being good. Then, maybe with time, you can gradually start adding additional minutes.
"The only true voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands, but rather in seeing with new eyes."
--Marcel Proust

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 9:53 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
208.121.74.182

Yep, I agree. Am going to try just that.

not something he can hear

Posted by cajunmoon on 7/3/2012, 10:37 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
66.81.254.41

I hope...something for the rider only. Have you used obstacles in the arena for him to work around as well, or step over so he has to think and listen while using the arena? So that it isn't just around the rails all the time? You have scrupulously checked the equipment for problems as well? We once had a horse have issue with a particular saddle he never had issue with before, and found the underside needed repair. Simple as that...another didn't like the girth rings touching his sides directly, prefered them padded by the saddle pad, evenly on each side. Good luck, bucking takes a lot of skill and evaluation to eliminate, I am getting too old to deal with that particular problem myself. Thanks for giving the horse the time.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by jodituft on 7/3/2012, 8:55 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"

Hey Gail- if you are talking about that handsome dapple grey (Chris was working with) you can pm me sometime and I'll tell you a little story..

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 4:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
208.121.74.182

Yes that's the video I saw! I'm going to PM you also. Love to hear it.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 9:31 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"

Yes, his teeth have been checked by vet and he wears a simple snaffle bit. He will trot fine at the beginning. Haven't done trot/canters at the start. To be honest, it's to the point where people are concerned about starting out cantering on him in the arena because they don't want to set him off. Things escalate with this guy pretty quickly. He is not the kind of horse that you can just make him run around a bit and he figues that is more work than doing the thing you asked. Once it starts going down that road if you keep pressing him pretty quickly he switches off the thinking side of his mind. He will dig in and run himself to the ground rather than comply, which doesn't really get person or horse anywhere. He's a pretty sensitive little horse.
So we want him to do something in the arena, and don't want to start off with a fit and make him have a bad experience. He canters fine on trail.

I'm not saying the horse isn't troubled by something. But it's not physical. This is a big rodeo size arena. He's not even being asked to do tight turns. It's some kind of mental trouble as in "don't want to do this any more. So I'm deciding to end it." Somewhere in his past I imagine this scare the rider by running sideway, kicking out, etc. strategy was an effective way to end things.

Have been doing a fair bit of stay focused ground work in the arena with this guy during his semi-layoff. He does perfect ground work. He does what is asked nicely. He keeps two eyes on you. He licks and chews when he does something well and you stop and tell him so. So far, this doesn't seem to transfer into the saddle very much, in terms of how he feels about riding in the arena.

Typically the routine we are using now is he goes from working in the arena as much as he can tolerate, when he starts acting up, we ask him to do a little more without pushing him over the edge, we take him out of the arena, nicely, to the trail work he likes, then he stands tied and saddled before he gets put away. I want to start timing the arena stuff and slowly make it longer and longer, and then maybe someone (not sure it will be me) will have to have the guts to try and canter him in the arena.

As part of this deal we are also working on not being too eager to get out of the arena gate. We have got to the point where he will stand and wait, but he still tosses his head while standing near the gate. So we don't let him walk out of the gate until he is standing reasonably calmly without tossing the head. For that we just sit him and if he tosses the head he has to back up, and not walk toward the gate. When he stands without tossing the head we let him take a couple steps, etc. Then we walk him out quietly. He's making progress with that.
On the other end of the spectrum I watched a 20 year old Thoroughbred lesson horse teaching a newbie how to canter last weekend. This rider (nice young girl, just green) was bouncing all over the old horse trying to learn. He just did his job for a half hour without one tail swish of complaint. And he's not shut down and running on autopilot. He's the sweetest old guy in the world. He really likes this little student and wanted to do a good job for her. Breaks my heart.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by Gail Ivey on 7/3/2012, 9:45 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
66.245.46.208

Great feedback! I love the way you're putting in some more details. It really helps.

This tells me something here - " He will dig in and run himself to the ground rather than comply, which doesn't really get person or horse anywhere."

That tells me a few things. Whatever is creating this issue, this horse has some determination to make his solutions work out for him, and really doesn't have any better idea of how to get it done. I would like to encourage you to just keep on going the way you are going. If I can add one thing to it, it would be to be conscious of when he starts coming up with any other idea at all, even if it's not the one you want. If you continue to present that the bucking behavior is just not going to work out for him, he may try something different. Be aware of that, and as long as it's not something worse than bucking, allow it for a time or two. It may just break his mind out of being locked into thinking there's only one way out of his trouble. When his mind opens to the possibility there may be more than one thing he can do, then he will start searching for what will work out the best for him.

So keep telling him the bucking doesn't work, but be alert to his trying something different under the same circumstances. He's a very determined horse.

As Ray Hunt used to say, "Workin' agin' ya, you don't need it. Workin' for ya, you can't beat it."
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 9:56 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
208.121.74.182

Yes, Gail, he's a funny one. The sweetest guy in the world if it's all on his terms. But when he doesn't want to do it, he's like a two-year old kid on the floor screaming that he doesn't want to wear those pajamas.

I'm used to my mustang, who is pretty simple by comparison. If you make him work a little harder, then he's happy to do the thing that is a little less work, and be done with it. He doesn't want to waste his energy on a fight.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by LakotaSioux on 7/3/2012, 11:28 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
74.93.20.193

Have you checked the saddle that you are using out? An ill fitting saddle could be some of the cause, but I still think that this horse needs to be worked outside of the arena, in an open area with hills.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 4:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
208.121.74.182

His saddle was checked by vet and chiro and they said it is not the issue.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by Xanthoria on 7/3/2012, 7:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"

Vets and chiros aren't as qualified to asses saddle fit as a saddle fitter. In fact I haven't met one yet who made money fitting saddles on the side!

I knew quite a few

Posted by Sunny on 7/4/2012, 7:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
24.113.27.183

yeah, not all and not unless they have taken the time to really learn about saddle fit, but I do know quite a few vet /chiro people that know plenty about saddle fit. To dismiss someone just because they are a vet or chiro isn't exactly fair..... you need to know their background too...

Re: I knew quite a few

Posted by Xanthoria on 7/7/2012, 4:09 pm, in reply to "I knew quite a few"

I know quite a few vets etc who'll make pronouncements on saddle fit that are refuted by saddle fitters too.

My point is: don't assume a vet knows all they need to know about saddle fit. Safer to have a good saddle fitter in to make sure.

I go to specialists for their opinion in their field, and we all know how sensitive horses can be about saddle fit.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by LakotaSioux on 7/3/2012, 11:22 am, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"

He doesn't fuss on the trail because his mind is occupied with the trail and watching where he places his feet. He needs a job, something that he likes to do. You have checked him out to be sound health-wise, so give him something to do. Try trail classes or NATRC rides, cattle sorting or anything that is active and keeping his mind busy. I do believe, that this horse is trying to tell you something - like get me to h*%ll out of this arena!

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 4:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
208.121.74.182

Yep, I agree. He came from Texas and he likes the big open spaces. Still, he can't refuse in this dangerous way. He has to learn to get along OK with things he doesn't like to do, including a reasonable amount of time in the arena. Or I guess I could ship him back to Texas so he could buck off some cowboys there!

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by LakotaSioux on 7/4/2012, 1:04 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
166.250.33.64

Or get someone who stick it out and see if they cannot reach him in this way. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't if the rider is not confident to begin with on a horse that might get to pitching a bit. I agree he shouldn't be doing this at all, but sometimes it helps to leave the arena for a bit and then slowly work back to it. I've seen people over-drill their horses in a round pen or arena until the horse just says, enough of this and starts fighting back.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by Xanthoria on 7/3/2012, 7:01 pm, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"

Regarding vet work, can you tell us what diagnostics were performed?

When something is effective it is continued

Posted by horsielover on 7/3/2012, 7:12 pm, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"
76.103.195.163

It sounds like for whatever reason he began bucking. Either to "escape" something or just plain end the lesson. I have seen horses do a number of tricks to escape a lesson.

This is just my opinion, but it sounds like you need a trainer to take the horse for a bit. The videos help with certain things as well as clinics, but he needs to learn that bucking is not effective way to end a lesson. Behaving is the way to end a lesson the fastest. He will have to have his behavior stopped before he reaches the point of bucking. A good trainer might never actually experience the bucking issue because they are stopping the behavior before it gets to the point of bucking.

I applaud you for taking steps to ensure it wasn't a physical issue and are still sticking with him to help fix him.

I hope things begin improving soon for you.

Re: When something is effective it is continued

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 8:24 pm, in reply to "When something is effective it is continued"
67.160.239.2

I agree. Think I need a really experienced trainer rider on this guy. I think he's pretty smart and has just figured out how to escape and get his way. At this point I know him well enough to avert the bucking, because I just change it up, or take it down a notch, but I don't think I know enough or have the reaction timing and finesse to really put a stop to his thinking about going to the buck when he's asked to do something he doesn't want to do. Very interesting case here, though.

Re: When something is effective it is continued

Posted by Jimmy on 7/3/2012, 9:11 pm, in reply to "Re: When something is effective it is continued"
75.247.35.93

I am pretty sure someone is going to have to bare down on him at some point.

Re: a trainer

Posted by Lizzie on 7/3/2012, 9:40 pm, in reply to "Re: When something is effective it is continued"

Why don't you consider having Gail Ivey work with him or why not send him back? how is he being used? is he a lesson horse?

Re: a trainer

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/3/2012, 9:55 pm, in reply to "Re: a trainer"

He's sure not a lesson horse acting like this! He was being considered for working as a lesson horse but he's not going to make it in the string acting like this. So I'm probably going to take him on, or he will be sent down the road to who knows where. He does great on the trail with a decent rider, and trail is mostly what I like to do. Just needs to work out these arena kinks. I think he's got a lot of good things going on. I just highlight the problems here to get help. A horse business doing lessons doesn't have time to straighten out a horse with these issues, when there are so many horses that would work fine. But I've taken a liking to this guy and don't want to give up on him. Special needs! I also don't want to get killed, so it's a fine line. The debate is really what's being stated here... the Gail Ivey approach, which I assume is slowly over time bring him around, hopefully, Get this idea of of his head, which is pretty deeply entrenched there. There is also the "bare down on him" approach, which isn't my preference. But I know there are advocates for that. And I realize it make take some more radical (not harmful) things to surprise him out of that mind set he's stuck in without instilling fear in him. Like Chris Cox does with the ropes or whatever. Not that I would try that myself. But I might need someone else to do some of those kind of exercises that are out of my box.

I didn't start this horse, so at least I can't blame myself for how he is. He's getting the idea that I'm not going to hurt him, that I will be fair to him. He seems to be trying and focusing in all other aspects, ground work, on trail. It's going to force me to be more observant, and solid and consistent and calm-minded in my riding to manage him through this, even though at this point I am pretty good. So hopefully beneficial for both of us.
It's a learning experience trying to fix it, that's for sure. and it's not going to be an overnight fix, I get that. Are there some horses that can't be encouraged to get along, because they are too set in their ways? Maybe. I guess I'll see. He's only six years old. So I think there's hope for him.

Again, I applaud your dedication to him

Posted by horsielover on 7/3/2012, 11:12 pm, in reply to "Re: a trainer"
76.103.195.163

It is so easy to say I can't deal with this and send him packing. That only isn't a good situation for him but like you said, you might learn a lot helping him through this.

Again, it is just my opinion but I think what will eventually happen is his threshold for what he will tolerate before acting out will decrease. He will only tolerate so much and what happens is you two come to a disagreement and he starts acting out to get his way. Eventually he will begin acting out more and more and if you are ever out on the trail and have a disagreement, chances are that you will NEED him to cooperate.

The trainer I work with had a horse that would flip over backwards when pushed. She had went down with a rider a few times and everything checked out okay with her medically. The family was dedicated to her and sent her to the trainer. With extensive ground work and basically starting over, she never reared with the trainer and has never reared again with her owners. I believe your horse can be helped through this and encourage you to audit a few clinics and see how the clinicians work with the horses.

Re: a trainer

Posted by LakotaSioux on 7/4/2012, 1:12 am, in reply to "Re: a trainer"
166.250.33.64

And sometimes it just takes time to get him to see things your way. Don't push the arena issue too much and yes, I would, if I were you, seek outside help to smooth things out if you really want to keep him. It definitely is a learning experience, but then that's half the fun of owning horses, right? Since he's only six, he shouldn't have that deep-rooted issues yet, just sounds a bit stubborn or just doesn't understand what you want of him. Maybe a bit of both. I think that once you get him to come around, he sounds like he would be a great horse for you.

Thanks, Everyone

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/4/2012, 9:18 am, in reply to "Re: a trainer"

I thank everyone for their posting and comments. I'll see how he does for the next couple weeks with this slow and steady spend a little more time each time routine. If there's no improvements at all I will get a trainer to work with us. In that case I'll be asking you all for training recommendations! Someone who can get on and ride him and stay on even if he busts his moves, as well as help me become the kind of rider that can support him and direct him to not go down that road. I'm a pretty good rider at this point, but I probably need some coaching on how to block his moves and/or get him going back straight after he gets a little off, without antagonizing him into escalation mode. Would like to get it smoothed out before winter, in any case, when arena riding night the only option some weeks.

I agree that as long as he shows this behavior it could come out on the trail or another more high risk situation, so I'm not going to just skate around it forever.

There is an opening

Posted by Gail Ivey on 7/4/2012, 9:43 am, in reply to "Thanks, Everyone"

in Harry Whitney's clinic in Copperopolis in September. It's a week long committment, but you will leave with a better understanding of what causes a horse to do what it does and how you can get him to willingly change his behavior. You will also have sore abs from all the laughing you will do, and get better food in one week than I get in a year.

After all, it's one thing to get him to stop bucking. It's another thing to reach his mind and his heart and have him choose to want to do something other than bucking.

Plus, it isn't just about this horse, it's about your own horses, and every other horse you will meet. A lot of people will go to one of Harry's clinics for their own issues with their own horses, but what they get is a much bigger picture than that, and benefits any other horse they may ride.

email onthewayranch AT caltel.com for info about the clinic

"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." -
Socrates

Re: There is an opening

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/5/2012, 9:09 am, in reply to "There is an opening"
67.160.239.2

I'd love to go but work might be too busy in September to let me off. Thanks, Gail.

Re: a trainer

Posted by Jimmy on 7/4/2012, 11:31 am, in reply to "Re: a trainer"
75.247.35.93

When I say bare down, I am not talking about punishment. If I decide i am going to ride a horse through the trouble, I will not weaken until there is some change.It might even get ugly. This is not training as if starting from the beginning, when there is nothing to take away from the horse. But from the sounds of it he has learned what he does. Despite what some say, you cannot go back to the beginning. Too late for that. He is what he is now, he learned it under saddle, he is going to have to unlearn it under saddle, and find something else to do instead. The problem with just making something difficult, is that sometimes these horses that come across stubborn have learned to struggle through difficult, and still come out on top, maybe because there was nothing better coming their way anyway, or bad timing, whatever.. They learn they can handle difficult. So it has to more than just difficult sometimes, but dang near impossible.

Re: a trainer

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/5/2012, 9:17 am, in reply to "Re: a trainer"
67.160.239.2

I hear you! One of the old cowboys I know said to "ride him up to Monument Peak with another horse and then bring him back to the arena and he'll be happy to be there. Sounds like when push comes to shove nobody has been able to beat that little guy and he knows it."

He didn't mean "beat" as in violence either. Just that he digs in and won't get along unless it's his agenda. And it might take showing him a good bit of work to compare to the little bit of work he'd have to do in the arena.

So like I said looks like there are two schools of thought here and since every horse is different who knows what will work. Of course I want a horse that will willingly go along. I get that. Maybe running him up a mountain will help him willngly get along better in the arena. Who knows?

curious-exactly how

Posted by M on 7/4/2012, 12:36 pm, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"
70.36.128.76

do you ride him on the trail and how do you ride him in the arena?

How much contact in each? Use of reins? Frame? Drive more from behind? How do you transition to canter? Do you use more of your body to direct in arena? Does he try to pull the reins from you at any particular time?

Re: curious-exactly how

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/5/2012, 9:28 am, in reply to "curious-exactly how"

Well on the trail we are mostly going straight, on trails. Up and down hills, turns are not very dramatic. It's been pretty easy pleasant riding, one or two hours at a stretch. He's in a snaffle bit and for the most part on the trail I will loose rein, neck rein, but will direct rein once in awhile as needed. He's very light on the trail responding to cues. He'll go into the trot easy and canter easy, and clearly knows the difference. Goes willingly and enjoys it. No tail swishing,, etc. Will also gallop when asked. Enjoys a little gallop. In terms of frame he will collect some but he's still learning that, not great at it and I haven't been pushing that aspect given the other stuff right now.

Arena same thing with reining, and the rest of it. In the arean we are typically going in a big circle, and maybe some wide patterns, nothing too tight on the turns. If I am turning him around the curve and direct reining keep outside hand down and inside hand up a bit to help him turn. He seems to understand all that. Except then after awhile of doing stuff you might go from a walk to trot and instead of being light and moving out as he had been doing previously he'll throw a leg. You straighten him out and ask again and he'll throw two legs. You get him going a little bit forward after than and he'll start running sideways. Anything but going straight and trotting. That's the deal.
I'm sure my riding could be better. I'm not Chris Cox or one of the greats. But I'm fairly good. I'm always working to improve. I ride a good number of horses in that arena, and I ride my five year old mustang who is still on the green side, and I've never had one behave in this particular way. I had a friend of mine watch me riding this one and he gave me some tips on how to better check him with the reins when he starts getting squirrelly, to block his side running and so forth, so that was helpful.

Never tries to pull the reins away. Will swish his tail, though, in the arena when he gets in that refusal mood. No swishing at the flies. Definitely "not liking this" tail swishing. I'd say he doesn't bother trying to get the reins away, and goes right to trying to take control away at the hindquarters, by tale swishing, kicking out and keeping the HQ untracked to the front so you're not going forward. So he's figured out that that's what works pretty well - and he's right! He's a QH with a nice strong rump on him.

Have you tried

Posted by pjc on 7/5/2012, 11:16 am, in reply to "Re: curious-exactly how"

taking him in a small circle, still at the trot, when he tries that? Several of those might make him decide that the resulting action is too much work. Or at least what he is trying won't work anymore. Or not! Circle immediately (hard direct rein if needed, disengage hind end a bit) until you can feel him 'give', release him from the circle and straighten out immediately, then return to the rail, all at a trot. If he is good on the rail at a trot, drop him gently to a walk. Rinse and repeat.

Support lawn order. Grow neat grass.
Sunnyvale, CA

he is being ridden differently

Posted by M on 7/6/2012, 7:09 pm, in reply to "Re: curious-exactly how"

sounds like he is much more constricted in the arena. Outside he carries himself and feels the occasional changes you want and he is fine with that - he carries himself in the frame he needs. He is light to the cues. In the arena, there may be too much contact (with entire body) and directing that makes him less comfortable with his balance. Freedom of neck and being in the frame he needs also allows him to balance. Sometimes helping a horse a bit too much gets in the way of a horse balancing himself.
Try to really see what you are doing on the trail- legs, hands, balance and replicate in the arena. Might try a short trail ride then arena - if it doesn't feel the same or if the response isn't the same to go back out to really evaluate what you are doing that is different. In the arena consider going around and thru obstacles (not perfectly as balance and understanding will improve to make better circles later). It is interesting how a horse will go around a barrel or .... as opposed to circling nothing.

Seems like whatever you are doing outside works.

If he just has a 20 minute attention span or that is as long as he can physically, comfortably do the circles and patterns , you can break it up by doing something different before the 20 min pass.

Caveate. - I don't know the horse or his background or his genetics, he could just be a major jerk, but I doubt it since he is such a nice horse and in tune with you outside and appears to try for 20 min inside.

I recently had a DUH! moment. "Natural Manhorseship" is much like the pressure (escalate pressure) /release method of "Natural Horsemanship (generic) thinking." The horse (generalization) will make what is right/correct easy for the person.and what is wrong hard. (they won't do what the person thinks they are requesting - they do what the person is actually asking) If the person doesn't get it, horse will increase pressure.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by SGH on 7/4/2012, 8:51 pm, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"
198.228.216.23

A few thoughts...If you haven't already done this, it could be helpful to get someone to video one of your rides. You might see something that is triggering the bucking. I have had horses that want to stop working after 20 minutes and had to push them through it. These are the ones that have been with trainers, many of whom only arena ride them for 20 minutes. For horses that get too out of control or overly playful during a ride, I get off, put them on a lunge line until they settle down and then get back on and finish the training session.
"Horses are non-human persons."

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/5/2012, 9:41 am, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
67.160.239.2

I like the video tape idea.

His kickingout/bucking thing is not being playful due to being fresh. I'm sure about that. I've seen him like that and for that, yes, I'll take him in the round pen and he enjoys getting his yayas out in that way if need be. This is not that.

But thanks, that is a good thing to think about anytime you've got a horse kicking out, for sure. Sometimes they just have a lot of energy and need to run it out a bit and that's a fair thing and the horse just being honest.

Something that was said

Posted by pjc on 7/5/2012, 11:03 am, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"
71.146.128.55

piqued my curiosity. Have you tried riding him in the arena after time on the trail?
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Re: Something that was said

Posted by sm on 7/6/2012, 7:11 pm, in reply to "Something that was said"
99.61.162.202

Or if you did the arena(for his limit of say 20 mins), hit the trail, and then go back to the arena would he go another 20 minutes in the arena at the end, or would he immediately be done?
Santa Rosa, CA

New Theory

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/7/2012, 10:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Something that was said"
67.160.239.2

That is a great idea. Arena, short trail ride, back to arena. Will try it!

BTW, rode him all weekend on trail and he was perfect. Never refuses, never fusses, does everything as asked on trail!

I am starting to think maybe there was an attempt at some point to train him to do reining or something, and 20 minutes in the arena was the warm up period before the shit hit the fan from his perspective. Of course I don't know, and will never know, for sure.

His 'quarter' is up at 20 min

Posted by BarbaraC on 7/8/2012, 12:48 am, in reply to "New Theory"
67.164.52.232

I own an Arab that would rear at 15 min if you did not know what you were doing. Pretty much cured him of that, but he would still try and pull crap out on the trail, just because he thought he was done at that juncture, and didn't want to go on.

Everyone who didn't have the skills, would take him out for a ride, he'd rear after 15 min, they'd get scared, get off, turn back, and he'd be done. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing.

I just sat it out, never got off, never turned back.

He is now 31, and will still give you 5 min to get your act together, and if you don't succeed in that timeframe, he will go stand at the gate. No manner of kicking or whipping him will make him turn, go, whatever. He knows he's smarter, and will absolutely just not even give you the time of day.

Your horse sounds like the same kind of guy. I would try and find someone who can ride it out, and show the horse that he cannot get away with that any longer. I think that is really the only way to get it worked out, unless you are either willing to let him give up after 20 min, or find some work for him that does not require him to do arena work for more than 20 min.

Me, I guess I'm just hard-headed and stupid. I'd try and ride it out until he learned he can't get away with it anymore.

But, then again, he could be like my old guy, and well, if one person figured it out, that does not mean that he will not try and test EVERY other person that comes along.

Sometimes, the smartest horses are the hardest to deal with.
Gateway to Almaden Valley/Southwest San Jose
Saving one dog's life may not make a difference, but it makes all the difference in the world to that one dog.

Re: His 'quarter' is up at 20 min

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/10/2012, 2:33 pm, in reply to "His 'quarter' is up at 20 min"
208.121.74.182

I have ridden it out on him. I've had full on riding it out battles with him for an hour or two. So I'm not sure that is the right approach for this one. He just digs in and goes more and more crazy the more you drive him. I've had him running full out for over an hour and he would finally give in, but I don't think it changed his mind much. I hear you - that kind of strategy works for my mustang. He will test and then give in when you keep him going, and you can finish up good on him that way.

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by Tori on 7/9/2012, 9:54 am, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"
75.107.5.244

How is he with a different rider?

Do you ever pull back on both reins at the same time?
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Front Range, Colorado

Re: Bucking Horse Update

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/10/2012, 2:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Bucking Horse Update"
208.121.74.182

I put a really great rider on him and he did the same exact thing. I wanted to see that also. I was willing to admit I was causing something, but I don't think it's quite that simple.

I'll get flamed for this, but

Posted by TigrL on 7/9/2012, 1:50 pm, in reply to "Bucking Horse Update"
98.207.99.57

maybe he has just learned that bucking gets his ride to end. I haven't read all the comments and everyone will have their view on this, but I've met horses that figured out that if they just start bucking then their ride is over. Also, keep in mind rider anticipation will transfer to hands and seat in the saddle, even if your not aware of it. I've retrained two horses that learned how to end their ride on their terms by bucking. I had an owner ready to give up cuz she came off 4 times in an hour. And this was a good rider with lots of experience. I got on the horse without any anticipations of bucking and had a fine ride. The other horse bucked with me, a lot, but I ended up just riding him through it and letting him pitch his fit. It was a rodeo ride, was definetly a last resort, but it solved his problem and now he's my number one go to horse for a quiet ride. It only took one time of "nope, sorry horse, your not getting your way this time and we can do this instead" and we were able to make a lot more progress. He's a quiet citizen that I can just about trust to have anyone ride (I've been riding him for 2 years since our...argument).

So maybe it's the rider tensing without realizing it, or maybe you need to get him ridden through it. Seems like you've ruled out everything else medical wise. Redirect him and teach him that bucking is unacceptable, period. Sounds harsh, but right now he's got the upper hand and that's not how horsemanship is suppose to work.

No flames for a fair opinion!

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/10/2012, 2:39 pm, in reply to "I'll get flamed for this, but "

I agree, and I did try just what you suggested twice. When he started acting up, took him to the round pen and worked up a good sweat on him. Then rode him to the ground practically. The feeling I got was at that point he was willing to put up a fight to the death before joining up, mindwise, even if his body was eventually doing as asked. I was pretty determined to "push him through it" but I don't think I got where we needed to be with that approach.
That wasn't the feeling I was aiming for. There wasn't a big change in him as a result of all that drama. Next time I got on him, in the arena he was the same. So I'm trying to figure out another way to get him to come along...
It's a strange one. Because he is a complete champ on the trail... I can take him from an easy walk, to a little gallop, ask him to stop and he comes down easy from the gallop, walks on nicely.
One time we were out on trail and horse next to us got its foot tangled up in some wire (not barb wire, thankfully). But that horse bolted off spooking trying to loose this big curl of wire dragging off its foot. And my guy stood when I asked him to, even with this other horse going ape crazy all around us.
So he's got a lot of good in him. He's not easily amped up on the trail. And he does perfect ground work. He's not pushy or bossy.
I think he's got a trigger of some kind with the arena. Something aggravates him pretty badly, whether it's a picture he took with his mind earlier in his training, well I will never know. So I'm trying to smooth that out. Make the arena no big deal. Don't want to add to whatever that thing is he hates, by every time I take him to the arena he I drive him to hell and back. I want him to understand the arena's not bad. I'm not in a rush.
Will keep you all posted!

Try the small circles as.

Posted by pjc on 7/10/2012, 4:11 pm, in reply to "No flames for a fair opinion!"

posted above. They are not as fun as bucking, and you can start them when he is just 'thinking' about coming unglued. He also doesn't get the satisfaction of you dismounting to do something else. No emotion - just circles.
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Re: Try the small circles as.

Posted by rosalita208 on 7/10/2012, 7:35 pm, in reply to "Try the small circles as."
67.160.239.2

Thanks. will try it.

Re: Try the small circles as.

Posted by isisjade on 7/11/2012, 6:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Try the small circles as."

Rehab, trainer and behavior specialist. 20 + yrs exp.

What is coming up for me is possible imbalance that is also mostly hidden its so subtle most folks won't catch it. But after 15-20 min it seems too much for his mind to grapple with. My senses tell me he's a straight shooter, especially given your exp with him on the trail. Give him the benefit of the doubt and begin looking for the subtler clues.

Give u his all he would. He is giving you silent cues but those are probably too subtle to see really. He only knows how to up the ante to be heard "ouch this hurts - I really need to stop now!"

Most massage therapists and chiros wont "see" this particular issue. And unless your vet is a specialist in joint or movement dysfunction (i only know of a handful that study movement abnormalities) he might not see it unless he watched your entire lesson session with this horse under saddle. Since he has been cleared, you can go deeper into muscular skeletal imbalances now as well as emotional issues.

This is not a training issue based on what you've said and based on your examples of his mindset on the trail. Other than maybe we have to adjust how you ask your horse to do things in the arena. Might be very complicated to sort out - might be a simple tweak. Takes time to find it though.

he knows how to compensate for this shortcoming, mostly. trails he wont run into this issue as much - it makes perfect sense, really. From his perspective. From ours, its fearful, worrisome, frustrating, and downright maddening at times. You see his potential - but what is this insanity about trying to buck me off in the arena? I am not asking for much. No more than i am on the trails... - but to him and to his body - you could be subtlely asking him for too much.

The work in the arena is very different insofar as the how in the biomechanics of how the joints operate. An the how in how our relationship interplays with one another in the arena.

Might be some stretching and rehabilitation. And lateral work to rebuild And support the structures.

I would not rule out the physical. Or the emotional just yet. I cannot tell you how many vets and chiros have missed the subtlest things that make all the difference in how a horse moves. I also cannot tell you how many expert riders and trainers i see unconsciously tense up in the arena - causing their horse to tense. it takes a very careful eye to notice the subtlties of such things. A slight intake of breath, the deliberate relaxation of thigh or back that immediately tenses when the focus changes to something else. The focus of an impending fight - even just entering the arena - all these things happen in a split second. All these tensions cause chaos to the joints and supporting systems that are responsible for the mechanics of movement. Also causes chaos to the horse. Why is she tensing? Why? Is something about to happen? What is the matter? Am i doing it wrong? I dont feel good, i need to stop, something hurts

Think about all the thoughts running thru your mind- to not think the same thing is happening on his end - well, we can only speculate.

If you Resolve the underlying issue - the behavior will disappear. But might take a few weeks, months. Lots of strategies can be employed but I would advise against riding him through it just yet - as it might just blow his mind and make him worse - if i am right. You could end up with a ticking time bomb on your hands. However, we dont know if i am right or not. You will need to feel this out for yourself if this makes sense to you.

Caveat here - i have not seen this horse move out or work. I do not know him. I do not know his mind or his attitude about work in general -

however between you and me, i have never met a lazy horse or a horse who did not love to work as long as he was of sound mind and body. These are deeply noble creatures.

Realize these are animals instinctually built to be on the go - constantly. No horse intentionally wants to get out of work unless there is more pain involved in the work than pleasure. To assume the horse is trying to get out of working is anthropomorphizing. I believe the horse is only choosing to unseat his rider rather than endure anymore pain - either physical or psychological. Simple as that. Resolve the imbalance - whatever it is, regain his confidence and trust and the issue will disappear like it never happened. This takes patience and a willingness to see more than just a stubborn horse. You have to decide if you have that kind of time and patience.

if you have a lazy or difficult horse - there is always, always an underlying issue.

I cannot give a professional opinion on this Matter here. It is however what his symptoms are pointing to. You defi nitely ride different in arena than on trails - everyone does. Its compensatory and completely unconscious. And he carries his body very differently in an arena than on a trail. Every horse does. Again unconscious. But necessary.

Most of all, do not lose faith. He has something special to give you in this experience between you and him.

is he bored?

Posted by TigrL on 7/15/2012, 10:00 pm, in reply to "No flames for a fair opinion!"
67.188.247.229

In the arena, do you stick to the rail or do you change up patterns? I had a horse that would buck if I kept him to the rail too long, but I started doing serpentines and whatnot and it went away. Kept his mind busy and eventually he figured out the rail wasn't too horrible.

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