BAEN Message Board

low carb hay

Posted by smoothrider on 8/6/2012, 9:14 pm

Long story short I am indesperate need of low carb hay. The combined percentage of the ESC, Starch and WSC needs to not exceed 10%. Daves Hay Barn in Santa Rosa and Larsens Feed in Cotati do not have anything even near that. Does anyone know where I can get some. Thanks, Pam

Larson's should be getting it in

Posted by Sally on 8/7/2012, 8:01 am, in reply to "low carb hay"
208.53.79.158

They get the low sugar hay from Campbell and Son Hay Sales out of Chico. Ask them for the 1-10 orchard grass - it tested ESC 6.6% and starch .3%, so it's well below 10% combined ESC and starch. WSC = ESC + fructan, so you don't add the two numbers together. Sorry if that is confusing. For IR horses we combine ESC + starch and try to stay below the 10% threshold, although some very sensitive horses can't even handle 10%. Fructan is broken down in the hind gut, so doesn't cause a glycemic rise, although very high amounts may cause digestive upset. Some owners and vets have reported problems with high WSC hay, so I avoid it. The WSC on the 1-10 orchard grass from Campbell's was only 8.5%, which is very low.

This hay won't be available for very long and they may already be sold out, but they are testing more hay.

Re: Larson's should be getting it in

Posted by smoothrider on 8/7/2012, 9:45 am, in reply to "Larson's should be getting it in"

Thanks for clarifying the %. I did get 6 bales from Larsens and now that the total % equation is refined it is very acceptable hay. Thanks.

Interesting conversation recently about ESC, WSC and starch

Posted by Dr Thunes on 8/7/2012, 2:04 pm, in reply to "Larson's should be getting it in"
108.202.114.255

Sally I had an interesting conversation recently with a plant scientist at UCD about these carb fractions and it turns out that WSC isn't just fructans. As you know WSC includes the ESC fraction and supposedly the difference between the 2 is fructan, which as you say is fermented in the hindgut. However apparently not all that difference is just fructan. There are some simple sugars that may not be dissolved in ether that will be dissolved in water. Therefore to truly be sure to capture all simple carbs available in the small intestine you would need to use WSC. This might very well explain why some horses have a hard time on higher WSC hays. If that particular hay's WSC is actually comprised of some simple sugars that will be digested in the small intestine it would impact blood glucose.

I'm not changing how I determine "safe" hay at this point (ESC + starch <10%) but I thought this was very interesting and something I will keep in mind especially if WSC is particularly higher than ESC.

Clair
Independent Equine Nutritionist,
Summit Equine Nutrition,
http://www.summit-equine.com
http://facebook.com/SummitEquineNutrition
clair@summit-equine.com 916-248-8987

Thank you!

Posted by Sally on 8/7/2012, 4:21 pm, in reply to "Interesting conversation recently about ESC, WSC and starch"
208.53.79.158

I've had my suspicions about this, but nothing to put my finger on. I just have had several vets and a handful of owners telling me that high WSC hay (mid - upper teens or higher) resulted in laminitis in susceptible horses, even though ESC + starch was under 10%. I have always steered clear of hay that was much over 14% WSC regardless of ESC + starch.

Back in the day when we just used NSC and stayed below 10% we didn't seem to have as many problems.

Re: Thank you!

Posted by Dr Thunes on 8/9/2012, 10:58 pm, in reply to "Thank you!"
108.202.114.255

This will certainly make me pay more attention to WSC. Like you I have been wary of high WSC hays especially for seemingly sensitive horses. I guess if you have an ESC+starch hay<10% but WSC is mid to upper teens then soaking might be a good idea if you have a sensitive horse.

Also interesting new data on soaking hay that came out in June suggesting that there is little difference between soaking for 15-30 minutes vs an hour and that hot water is more effective for orchard hay than cold but made no difference for alfalfa.

Clair
Independent Equine Nutritionist,
Summit Equine Nutrition,
http://www.summit-equine.com
http://facebook.com/SummitEquineNutrition
clair@summit-equine.com 916-248-8987

Re: Interesting conversation recently about ESC, WSC and starch

Posted by smoothrider on 8/7/2012, 9:30 pm, in reply to "Interesting conversation recently about ESC, WSC and starch"

Thank You Dr Thunes, I actually sent an email to you today regarding this very thing. I called the company that did the hay analysis thinking they should know what is added together to get the correct percentage. I was told WSC and Starch. If an orchard grass hay is ESC 6.6, WSC 8.5 and starch is .3 it is acceptable, either way, correct?

Yes you should be good to go regardless/ nm

Posted by Dr Thunes on 8/9/2012, 10:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Interesting conversation recently about ESC, WSC and starch"
108.202.114.255

nm
Independent Equine Nutritionist,
Summit Equine Nutrition,
http://www.summit-equine.com
http://facebook.com/SummitEquineNutrition
clair@summit-equine.com 916-248-8987