Posted by Radama on June 24, 2012, 3:04 pm 41.207.42.2
It had been discussed here that the turquoise necklace once worn by the GD of Luxembourg during a State visit in Belgium coud have been turned into the current bandeau.
That necklace looks very similarly in design with the one below which was auctionned in Paris on 23th June 1993. It was stated to be originally belonging to the Grand Duchess of Baden (1789-1860) born Stephanie de Beauharnais :
I don't thinnk that the necklace is transformed in a bandeau because the necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot like the original necklace, only without pendants
--Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants :
I'm no fan of turquoise usually, but the necklace worn by the Grand Duchess is really something. Beautiful infact.
If I remember correctly, there was once a comparison of this turquoise necklace and the new turquoise tiara posted (by Tamara?) which made quite clear that the tiara was not created from the necklace, and not from its pendants either. Perhaps someone saved those pictures?
--Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants :
That's a very good question. As this grand demi-parure has not been worn by any other of the present Bernadotte ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's private property), it should be most likely in her personal possession. But its provenance is something of a mystery. There is no record of a previous Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear it in public in the second half of the 1990s. A certain very knowledgeable poster here once hinted at the possibility that the turquoises might have a royal provenance indeed and found their way back to the main Bernadotte family branch. Another good view of earrings, necklace and ring:
--Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : :
Thank you Boris I wonder if it was a inheritance as it only apperared relatively recently? It is certainly very impressive and outshines some of the other turquoise sets around
--Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : :
The turquoise on the tiara are much smaller in size than the grand turquoise necklace that GD is wearing in Radama's post.
and let's not forget Queen Margrethe II with her turquoise from her mother (Queen Ingrid)....
and also Princess Astrid of Norway
and in addition Coburg turquoise parure shouldn't be forgotten...sorry I can't find the photo, maybe someone else ? EDIT...just found the photo
--Previous Message-- : If I remember correctly, there was once a : comparison of this turquoise necklace and : the new turquoise tiara posted (by Tamara?) : which made quite clear that the tiara was : not created from the necklace, and not from : its pendants either. : Perhaps someone saved those pictures? : : --Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants : : :
Thank you for this turquoise collection, Tamara! Another addition: Queen Sofia's rarely seen two different sets of turquoises:
--Previous Message-- : The turquoise on the tiara are much smaller in : size than the grand turquoise necklace that : GD is wearing in Radama's post. : : : and let's not forget Queen Margrethe II with : her turquoise from her mother (Queen : Ingrid).... : : : : and also Princess Astrid of Norway : : : and in addition Coburg turquoise parure : shouldn't be forgotten...sorry I can't find : the photo, maybe someone else ? : EDIT...just found the photo : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : If I remember correctly, there was once a : comparison of this turquoise necklace and : the new turquoise tiara posted (by Tamara?) : which made quite clear that the tiara was : not created from the necklace, and not from : its pendants either. : Perhaps someone saved those pictures? : : --Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants : : : : : :
thanks Boris... i just don't understand why all her dangly earrings have the same teardrop design surrounded with diamonds and then half way another row of diamonds...to me such repetative pattern screams "Fake"...i know its hard to believe that is the possibility but I have always questioned her earrings...any earrings with the different color stones in the same design....
and honestly this whole turquoise demi parure is questionable as far as stone and diamonds being real...there is something about the design of this necklace that is off...
Here is a great closeup to show why I think they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable about how jewelry is made, you should see with your trained eye what I mean
--Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : :
wow thanks Boris I have never seen these turquoise sets before...2nd one is quite impressive.
--Previous Message-- : Thank you for this turquoise collection, : Tamara! : Another addition: : Queen Sofia's rarely seen two different sets : of turquoises: : : : : --Previous Message-- : The turquoise on the tiara are much smaller : in : size than the grand turquoise necklace that : GD is wearing in Radama's post. : : : and let's not forget Queen Margrethe II with : her turquoise from her mother (Queen : Ingrid).... : : : : and also Princess Astrid of Norway : : : and in addition Coburg turquoise parure : shouldn't be forgotten...sorry I can't find : the photo, maybe someone else ? : EDIT...just found the photo : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : If I remember correctly, there was once a : comparison of this turquoise necklace and : the new turquoise tiara posted (by Tamara?) : which made quite clear that the tiara was : not created from the necklace, and not from : its pendants either. : Perhaps someone saved those pictures? : : --Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants : : : : : : : :
Thanks a lot for this festival of turquoise parures Tamara , it's really thrilling
--Previous Message-- : The turquoise on the tiara are much smaller in : size than the grand turquoise necklace that : GD is wearing in Radama's post. : : : and let's not forget Queen Margrethe II with : her turquoise from her mother (Queen : Ingrid).... : : : : and also Princess Astrid of Norway : : : and in addition Coburg turquoise parure : shouldn't be forgotten...sorry I can't find : the photo, maybe someone else ? : EDIT...just found the photo : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : If I remember correctly, there was once a : comparison of this turquoise necklace and : the new turquoise tiara posted (by Tamara?) : which made quite clear that the tiara was : not created from the necklace, and not from : its pendants either. : Perhaps someone saved those pictures? : : --Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants : : : : : : Radama
Tamara, not 'all her dangly earrings' have the same design... actually, the only two pairs with exactly the design as described by you are these two, the turquoise and the 'diamond' earrings pictured in your post. And while very similar, the design of those is not identical either. Regarding the 'diamond' ones, I've always had my doubts as well, but the story of the turquoises might not be as simple.
It's obvious that Princess Lilian has always preferred longer, dangling pendant earrings, no matter if it's her diamond and pearl, her emerald or chandelier earrings, all of which are most certainly real, and I don't see a preference for a certain design as indicative of 'fake' per se.
Without a close look at others (I particularly suspect her diamond and 'citrine' earrings to be possibly fake) it's just not possible to tell.
--Previous Message-- : thanks Boris... : i just don't understand why all her dangly : earrings have the same teardrop design : surrounded with diamonds and then half way : another row of diamonds...to me such : repetative pattern screams : "Fake"...i know its hard to : believe that is the possibility but I have : always questioned her earrings...any : earrings with the different color stones in : the same design.... : : and honestly this whole turquoise demi : parure is questionable as far as stone and : diamonds being real...there is something : about the design of this necklace that is : off... : : : : : Here is a great closeup to show why I think : they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable : about how jewelry is made, you should see : with your trained eye what I mean : : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : :
I lost diamond and citrine earring closeup but I remember clearly that it was identical design to the first 3 photos I posted...the 'diamond' ones...I am absolutely sure they are both fake.
--Previous Message-- : Tamara, not 'all her dangly earrings' have the : same design... actually, the only two pairs : with exactly the design as described by you : are these two, the turquoise and the : 'diamond' earrings pictured in your post. : And while very similar, the design of those : is not identical either. : Regarding the 'diamond' ones, I've always : had my doubts as well, but the story of the : turquoises might not be as simple. : : It's obvious that Princess Lilian has always : preferred longer, dangling pendant earrings, : no matter if it's her diamond and pearl, her : emerald or chandelier earrings, all of which : are most certainly real, and I don't see a : preference for a certain design as : indicative of 'fake' per se. : : Without a close look at others (I : particularly suspect her diamond and : 'citrine' earrings to be possibly fake) it's : just not possible to tell. : : : --Previous Message-- : thanks Boris... : i just don't understand why all her dangly : earrings have the same teardrop design : surrounded with diamonds and then half way : another row of diamonds...to me such : repetative pattern screams : "Fake"...i know its hard to : believe that is the possibility but I have : always questioned her earrings...any : earrings with the different color stones in : the same design.... : : and honestly this whole turquoise demi : parure is questionable as far as stone and : diamonds being real...there is something : about the design of this necklace that is : off... : : : : : Here is a great closeup to show why I think : they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable : about how jewelry is made, you should see : with your trained eye what I mean : : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
I think this set (photo below) of turquoise jewels looks more real, than this grand demi parure you referring to...just my personal observation.
--Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : :
Taking a closer look at GD Maria Teresa necklace and the GD of Baden one's, it is most likely the same necklace and probably was aquired by the Luxembourg House . There was a connection with the first owner by GD Josephine Charlotte who was a distant cousin of Pcess Genevieve d'Orleans, Marquise de Chaponay the last owner. I am not convinced that the current bandeau turquoise tiara the last time seen on Pcess Tessy has nothing to do with GD Maria Teresa grand necklace. The side by side comparison below to me indicates that there is similarity between the clusters and also the diamond prongs.
If this is established we have no good hope to see the necklace worn again by GD Maria Teresa
--Previous Message-- : If I remember correctly, there was once a : comparison of this turquoise necklace and : the new turquoise tiara posted (by Tamara?) : which made quite clear that the tiara was : not created from the necklace, and not from : its pendants either. : Perhaps someone saved those pictures? : : --Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants : : :
The turquoise and the 'diamond' earrings are almost in the same design (though not identical), the 'citrine' ones just have a similar design:
--Previous Message-- : I lost diamond and citrine earring closeup but : I remember clearly that it was identical : design to the first 3 photos I posted...the : 'diamond' ones...I am absolutely sure they : are both fake. : : : : --Previous Message-- : Tamara, not 'all her dangly earrings' have : the : same design... actually, the only two pairs : with exactly the design as described by you : are these two, the turquoise and the : 'diamond' earrings pictured in your post. : And while very similar, the design of those : is not identical either. : Regarding the 'diamond' ones, I've always : had my doubts as well, but the story of the : turquoises might not be as simple. : : It's obvious that Princess Lilian has always : preferred longer, dangling pendant earrings, : no matter if it's her diamond and pearl, her : emerald or chandelier earrings, all of which : are most certainly real, and I don't see a : preference for a certain design as : indicative of 'fake' per se. : : Without a close look at others (I : particularly suspect her diamond and : 'citrine' earrings to be possibly fake) it's : just not possible to tell. : : : --Previous Message-- : thanks Boris... : i just don't understand why all her dangly : earrings have the same teardrop design : surrounded with diamonds and then half way : another row of diamonds...to me such : repetative pattern screams : "Fake"...i know its hard to : believe that is the possibility but I have : always questioned her earrings...any : earrings with the different color stones in : the same design.... : : and honestly this whole turquoise demi : parure is questionable as far as stone and : diamonds being real...there is something : about the design of this necklace that is : off... : : : : : Here is a great closeup to show why I think : they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable : about how jewelry is made, you should see : with your trained eye what I mean : : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
Thanks a lot Tamara, I was just wondering if I should go down the looong and winding road of searching for a good pic of this 2nd set! I wish there was a HQ pic of the grand turquoise set, or at least a clear close up in artificial light - that would tell us more. Having the clearest pics of it in dull daylight (in the dress with the turquoise pattern, outside of Gripsholm Castle at the royal couple's silver wedding 2001) is not so helpful IMHO...
--Previous Message-- : I think this set (photo below) of turquoise : jewels looks more real, than this grand demi : parure you referring to...just my personal : observation. : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : :
Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace resemble the design of the setting of all the turquoises in the tiara - The necklace does have larger and less turquoises than the tiara - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace in the first place - I don't see the connection between tiara and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace either, because the turquoises in the motifs removed when the necklace was worn in its shorter version are indeed larger than the ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above.
In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think that your theory is correct. IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace and the Baden necklace are three different pieces.
--Previous Message-- : : Taking a closer look at GD Maria Teresa : necklace and the GD of Baden one's, it is : most likely the same necklace and probably : was aquired by the Luxembourg House . There : was a connection with the first owner by GD : Josephine Charlotte who was a distant cousin : of Pcess Genevieve d'Orleans, Marquise de : Chaponay the last owner. : I am not convinced that the current bandeau : turquoise tiara the last time seen on Pcess : Tessy has nothing to do with GD Maria Teresa : grand necklace. The side by side comparison : below to me indicates that there is : similarity between the clusters and also the : diamond prongs. : : : : If this is established we have no good hope : to see the necklace worn again by GD Maria : Teresa : : : --Previous Message-- : If I remember correctly, there was once a : comparison of this turquoise necklace and : the new turquoise tiara posted (by Tamara?) : which made quite clear that the tiara was : not created from the necklace, and not from : its pendants either. : Perhaps someone saved those pictures? : : --Previous Message-- : I don't thinnk that the necklace is : transformed in a bandeau because the : necklace worn with the bandeau looks a lot : like the original necklace, only without : pendants : : : : : : :
OT I may be really old fashioned, but I believe white tie requires hosiery for women! This has been bothering me for quite awhile, and that last picture is an excellent example of a beautiful lady, beautifully dressed from head to hem, but not from hem to toes! jinja
Could the last grand duchess of Baden have left her turquoises to her niece, the grand duchess of Luxembourg? She left other jewels thus. And that's a much closer family relationship than the one between the marquise of Chaponay and the GD Josephine.
The marquise of Chaponay is a "feminine-line" descendant of Stephanie GD of Baden and so the necklace passed on to her, the mother having bequeathed it to her daughter in each generation. And the marquise is a first cousin of King Leopold father of GD Josephine Charlotte. There is the connection but not by the last GD of Baden.
--Previous Message-- : Could the last grand duchess of Baden have : left her turquoises to her niece, the grand : duchess of Luxembourg? She left other : jewels thus. And that's a much closer : family relationship than the one between the : marquise of Chaponay and the GD Josephine. : Radama
I may be wrong but I don't agree with you Boris. I explain it : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants on the Baden necklace are identical to those of the tiara and the stones are of the same size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and the rounds ones.
Indeed there are more stones in the tiara but I think they could have been added and the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole part (see the picture I scanned for my first post). But above all, just my guesses.
--Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : Radama
The necklace of Stephanie de Beauharnais went to her granddaughter Marie of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, countess of Flanders. She left it to her daughter and the necklace was sold a few years ago. The countess of Flanders did leave the pearl tiara of Stephanie de Beauharnais to her granddaughter Marie-José. This piece was sold by Marie-Gabrielle of Savoy recently.
--Previous Message-- : The marquise of Chaponay is a : "feminine-line" descendant of : Stephanie GD of Baden and so the necklace : passed on to her, the mother having : bequeathed it to her daughter in each : generation. And the marquise is a first : cousin of King Leopold father of GD : Josephine Charlotte. There is the connection : but not by the last GD of Baden. : : --Previous Message-- : Could the last grand duchess of Baden have : left her turquoises to her niece, the grand : duchess of Luxembourg? She left other : jewels thus. And that's a much closer : family relationship than the one between the : marquise of Chaponay and the GD Josephine. : : :
--Previous Message-- : Tamara, not 'all her dangly earrings' have the : same design... actually, the only two pairs : with exactly the design as described by you : are these two, the turquoise and the : 'diamond' earrings pictured in your post. : And while very similar, the design of those : is not identical either. : Regarding the 'diamond' ones, I've always : had my doubts as well, but the story of the : turquoises might not be as simple. : : It's obvious that Princess Lilian has always : preferred longer, dangling pendant earrings, : no matter if it's her diamond and pearl, her : emerald or chandelier earrings, all of which : are most certainly real, and I don't see a : preference for a certain design as : indicative of 'fake' per se. : : Without a close look at others (I : particularly suspect her diamond and : 'citrine' earrings to be possibly fake) it's : just not possible to tell. : : : --Previous Message-- : thanks Boris... : i just don't understand why all her dangly : earrings have the same teardrop design : surrounded with diamonds and then half way : another row of diamonds...to me such : repetative pattern screams : "Fake"...i know its hard to : believe that is the possibility but I have : always questioned her earrings...any : earrings with the different color stones in : the same design.... : : and honestly this whole turquoise demi : parure is questionable as far as stone and : diamonds being real...there is something : about the design of this necklace that is : off... : : : : : Here is a great closeup to show why I think : they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable : about how jewelry is made, you should see : with your trained eye what I mean : : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
As indicated in my immediately above post, I think that the turquoise earrings, and likely the "diamond" ones, are Ciner.
--Previous Message-- : : Ciner produced such earrings, and it might : well be that they are costume. Personally, I : have always thought so. : : http://www.polyvore.com/ciner_rhinestone_faux_turquoise_earrings/thing?id=12646688 : : : --Previous Message-- : Tamara, not 'all her dangly earrings' have : the : same design... actually, the only two pairs : with exactly the design as described by you : are these two, the turquoise and the : 'diamond' earrings pictured in your post. : And while very similar, the design of those : is not identical either. : Regarding the 'diamond' ones, I've always : had my doubts as well, but the story of the : turquoises might not be as simple. : : It's obvious that Princess Lilian has always : preferred longer, dangling pendant earrings, : no matter if it's her diamond and pearl, her : emerald or chandelier earrings, all of which : are most certainly real, and I don't see a : preference for a certain design as : indicative of 'fake' per se. : : Without a close look at others (I : particularly suspect her diamond and : 'citrine' earrings to be possibly fake) it's : just not possible to tell. : : : --Previous Message-- : thanks Boris... : i just don't understand why all her dangly : earrings have the same teardrop design : surrounded with diamonds and then half way : another row of diamonds...to me such : repetative pattern screams : "Fake"...i know its hard to : believe that is the possibility but I have : always questioned her earrings...any : earrings with the different color stones in : the same design.... : : and honestly this whole turquoise demi : parure is questionable as far as stone and : diamonds being real...there is something : about the design of this necklace that is : off... : : : : : Here is a great closeup to show why I think : they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable : about how jewelry is made, you should see : with your trained eye what I mean : : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
Thank you very much for posting this find, Dmitry. The Ciner earrings are almost identical to Princess Lilian’s, and I agree that Ciner most likely produced the two pairs you mention. Now the question remains if Lilian would indeed wear a whole faux demi parure of turquoises, or if she followed the same habit as with the diamond – and possibly ‘citrine’ – earrings of wearing them with very real necklaces.
--Previous Message-- : As indicated in my immediately above post, I : think that the turquoise earrings, and : likely the "diamond" ones, are : Ciner. : : --Previous Message-- : : Ciner produced such earrings, and it might : well be that they are costume. Personally, I : have always thought so. : : : http://www.polyvore.com/ciner_rhinestone_faux_turquoise_earrings/thing?id=12646688 : : : --Previous Message-- : Tamara, not 'all her dangly earrings' have : the : same design... actually, the only two pairs : with exactly the design as described by you : are these two, the turquoise and the : 'diamond' earrings pictured in your post. : And while very similar, the design of those : is not identical either. : Regarding the 'diamond' ones, I've always : had my doubts as well, but the story of the : turquoises might not be as simple. : : It's obvious that Princess Lilian has always : preferred longer, dangling pendant earrings, : no matter if it's her diamond and pearl, her : emerald or chandelier earrings, all of which : are most certainly real, and I don't see a : preference for a certain design as : indicative of 'fake' per se. : : Without a close look at others (I : particularly suspect her diamond and : 'citrine' earrings to be possibly fake) it's : just not possible to tell. : : : --Previous Message-- : thanks Boris... : i just don't understand why all her dangly : earrings have the same teardrop design : surrounded with diamonds and then half way : another row of diamonds...to me such : repetative pattern screams : "Fake"...i know its hard to : believe that is the possibility but I have : always questioned her earrings...any : earrings with the different color stones in : the same design.... : : and honestly this whole turquoise demi : parure is questionable as far as stone and : diamonds being real...there is something : about the design of this necklace that is : off... : : : : : Here is a great closeup to show why I think : they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable : about how jewelry is made, you should see : with your trained eye what I mean : : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
A big thank you Dmitry for sharing your interesting find. Princess Lilian has therefore her own style mixing real and costume jewelry even during grand gala events such as Nobel one. Thus she is like Pcess Viggo Countess of Rosenborg.
--Previous Message-- : As indicated in my immediately above post, I : think that the turquoise earrings, and : likely the "diamond" ones, are : Ciner. : : --Previous Message-- : : Ciner produced such earrings, and it might : well be that they are costume. Personally, I : have always thought so. : : : http://www.polyvore.com/ciner_rhinestone_faux_turquoise_earrings/thing?id=12646688 : :
anytime...Boris please remind me the event where she wore this turquoise necklace? I will try to search for it...there must be a better photo somewhere.
Maybe is we track down which magazines covered that event, we'll have a better chance on getting closeup of that necklace?
--Previous Message-- : Thanks a lot Tamara, I was just wondering if I : should go down the looong and winding road : of searching for a good pic of this 2nd set! : I wish there was a HQ pic of the grand : turquoise set, or at least a clear close up : in artificial light - that would tell us : more. : Having the clearest pics of it in dull : daylight (in the dress with the turquoise : pattern, outside of Gripsholm Castle at the : royal couple's silver wedding 2001) is not : so helpful IMHO... : : --Previous Message-- : I think this set (photo below) of turquoise : jewels looks more real, than this grand demi : parure you referring to...just my personal : observation. : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
My eyes have never failed me when determining what's real or fake and you just helped me prove my point
thanks again
--Previous Message-- : : Ciner produced such earrings, and it might : well be that they are costume. Personally, I : have always thought so. : : http://www.polyvore.com/ciner_rhinestone_faux_turquoise_earrings/thing?id=12646688 : : : --Previous Message-- : Tamara, not 'all her dangly earrings' have : the : same design... actually, the only two pairs : with exactly the design as described by you : are these two, the turquoise and the : 'diamond' earrings pictured in your post. : And while very similar, the design of those : is not identical either. : Regarding the 'diamond' ones, I've always : had my doubts as well, but the story of the : turquoises might not be as simple. : : It's obvious that Princess Lilian has always : preferred longer, dangling pendant earrings, : no matter if it's her diamond and pearl, her : emerald or chandelier earrings, all of which : are most certainly real, and I don't see a : preference for a certain design as : indicative of 'fake' per se. : : Without a close look at others (I : particularly suspect her diamond and : 'citrine' earrings to be possibly fake) it's : just not possible to tell. : : : --Previous Message-- : thanks Boris... : i just don't understand why all her dangly : earrings have the same teardrop design : surrounded with diamonds and then half way : another row of diamonds...to me such : repetative pattern screams : "Fake"...i know its hard to : believe that is the possibility but I have : always questioned her earrings...any : earrings with the different color stones in : the same design.... : : and honestly this whole turquoise demi : parure is questionable as far as stone and : diamonds being real...there is something : about the design of this necklace that is : off... : : : : : Here is a great closeup to show why I think : they are fake. If anyone is knowledgeable : about how jewelry is made, you should see : with your trained eye what I mean : : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
Tamara, Princess Lilian wore the turquoises for several white tie galas, including a few of the King's representation dinners... But the two occasions which might have received the biggest coverage besides the King and Queen's Silver Wedding are the King's 'Day After' Nobel gala in 1998 (11th of December) and the state banquet for South African President Mandela during his state visit to Sweden on March 17, 1999 (just looked it up ).
--Previous Message-- : anytime...Boris please remind me the event : where she wore this turquoise necklace? I : will try to search for it...there must be a : better photo somewhere. : : Maybe is we track down which magazines : covered that event, we'll have a better : chance on getting closeup of that necklace? : : : --Previous Message-- : Thanks a lot Tamara, I was just wondering if : I : should go down the looong and winding road : of searching for a good pic of this 2nd set! : I wish there was a HQ pic of the grand : turquoise set, or at least a clear close up : in artificial light - that would tell us : more. : Having the clearest pics of it in dull : daylight (in the dress with the turquoise : pattern, outside of Gripsholm Castle at the : royal couple's silver wedding 2001) is not : so helpful IMHO... : : --Previous Message-- : I think this set (photo below) of turquoise : jewels looks more real, than this grand demi : parure you referring to...just my personal : observation. : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
thanks..I will really try to find anything but no promises...
--Previous Message-- : Tamara, Princess Lilian wore the turquoises : for several white tie galas, including a few : of the King's representation dinners... : But the two occasions which might have : received the biggest coverage besides the : King and Queen's Silver Wedding are the : King's 'Day After' Nobel gala in 1998 (11th : of December) and the state banquet for South : African President Mandela during his state : visit to Sweden on March 17, 1999 (just : looked it up ). : : --Previous Message-- : anytime...Boris please remind me the event : where she wore this turquoise necklace? I : will try to search for it...there must be a : better photo somewhere. : : Maybe is we track down which magazines : covered that event, we'll have a better : chance on getting closeup of that necklace? : : : --Previous Message-- : Thanks a lot Tamara, I was just wondering if : I : should go down the looong and winding road : of searching for a good pic of this 2nd set! : I wish there was a HQ pic of the grand : turquoise set, or at least a clear close up : in artificial light - that would tell us : more. : Having the clearest pics of it in dull : daylight (in the dress with the turquoise : pattern, outside of Gripsholm Castle at the : royal couple's silver wedding 2001) is not : so helpful IMHO... : : --Previous Message-- : I think this set (photo below) of turquoise : jewels looks more real, than this grand demi : parure you referring to...just my personal : observation. : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
One more date: King’s representation gala dinner, Stockholm Palace 1/16/2002:
--Previous Message-- : thanks..I will really try to find anything : but no promises... : : : : --Previous Message-- : Tamara, Princess Lilian wore the turquoises : for several white tie galas, including a few : of the King's representation dinners... : But the two occasions which might have : received the biggest coverage besides the : King and Queen's Silver Wedding are the : King's 'Day After' Nobel gala in 1998 (11th : of December) and the state banquet for South : African President Mandela during his state : visit to Sweden on March 17, 1999 (just : looked it up ). : : --Previous Message-- : anytime...Boris please remind me the event : where she wore this turquoise necklace? I : will try to search for it...there must be a : better photo somewhere. : : Maybe is we track down which magazines : covered that event, we'll have a better : chance on getting closeup of that necklace? : : : --Previous Message-- : Thanks a lot Tamara, I was just wondering if : I : should go down the looong and winding road : of searching for a good pic of this 2nd set! : I wish there was a HQ pic of the grand : turquoise set, or at least a clear close up : in artificial light - that would tell us : more. : Having the clearest pics of it in dull : daylight (in the dress with the turquoise : pattern, outside of Gripsholm Castle at the : royal couple's silver wedding 2001) is not : so helpful IMHO... : : --Previous Message-- : I think this set (photo below) of turquoise : jewels looks more real, than this grand demi : parure you referring to...just my personal : observation. : : : : --Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
La Marquise Geneviève de Chaponay is the Duchess of Vendome’s daughter. The Duchess of Vendome is King Albert I’s sister. If this turquoises came back to Belgium and afterwards to Luxembourg is an interesting find ! Thanks
--Previous Message-- : The marquise of Chaponay is a : "feminine-line" descendant of : Stephanie GD of Baden and so the necklace : passed on to her, the mother having : bequeathed it to her daughter in each : generation. And the marquise is a first : cousin of King Leopold father of GD : Josephine Charlotte. There is the connection : but not by the last GD of Baden. : : --Previous Message-- : Could the last grand duchess of Baden have : left her turquoises to her niece, the grand : duchess of Luxembourg? She left other : jewels thus. And that's a much closer : family relationship than the one between the : marquise of Chaponay and the GD Josephine. : : :
Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise surrounded with diamonds is "similar" design but not identical...I am referring to your scan of the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise tiara worn by GD.
Here is your scan rotated to see how it would look as a tiara...and I can clearly see that both jewels cannot be compared because Baden design looks much older (more refined)in its design than the one worn by GD.
Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting similarities with the Belgien turquoise parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for its new owner.
As far as this turquoise necklace is concerned (the clearest picture I have), this is totally different necklace. To me it looks like British version of diamond necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the pieces were removed to make earrings, which is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off topic now lol)...You can almost remove second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of another) and use them as earrings...
what I am trying to say is that, this necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore as tiara and necklace...as I agree with Boris, we are talking about 4 different jewels that have no connection.
--Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : :
comparison turquoise necklaces and tiara
Posted by Radama on June 27, 2012, 9:30 pm, in reply to "Re: comparison" 41.207.42.2
Your close ups are fantastic as always Tamara! And I still say the Baden necklace is the one GD Maria Teresa wore in Brussels in April 2007 but remodeled. On your last close up it is clearer : you can perfectly distinguish the palmettes dangling with some remodeling : two small pendants added on each side of the palmette on the central motif while on the following one, on both side, they receive one larger pendant upon each palmette.
Now having seen the belgian turquoise necklace you posted above (from Countess of Flanders provenance), I'm pretty sure it is GD Maria Teresa's one which was worn on Finnish State Visit (2008 if I recall correctly). If you put the girandole pendant of the brooch dangling on the necklace, it fits perfectly. This necklace was auctionned the year before rather by Pss Maria Gabriella of Savoy. Some of its stones could have been constitute the current GD tiara in addition of some of the Baden necklace.
Thus in conclusion, my theory if I may say so is : all the turquoises belonging to the Countess of Flanders are now in the GD of Luxembourg vault.
--Previous Message-- : Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise : surrounded with diamonds is : "similar" design but not : identical...I am referring to your scan of : the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise : tiara worn by GD. : : Here is your scan rotated to see how it : would look as a tiara...and I can clearly : see that both jewels cannot be compared : because Baden design looks much older (more : refined)in its design than the one worn by : GD. : : : : Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting : similarities with the Belgien turquoise : parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, : which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for : its new owner. : : : As far as this turquoise necklace is : concerned (the clearest picture I have), : this is totally different necklace. To me it : looks like British version of diamond : necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the : pieces were removed to make earrings, which : is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off : topic now lol)...You can almost remove : second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of : another) and use them as earrings... : : what I am trying to say is that, this : necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore : as tiara and necklace...as I agree with : Boris, we are talking about 4 different : jewels that have no connection. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : : : : Radama
What's more, comparing the Grand-Duchess large turquoise necklace to the Baden necklace, it is clear that although having similar elements that they are different pieces.
For example in the Baden necklace, the palmette motifs contain a large turquoise stone, whereas in the Grand-duchess's necklace con taints all diamond motifs. Also the whole chain is different, whereas the grand-duchess's large necklace contains turquoise and diamond clusters separated by diamond collets; whereas in the Baden necklace, the clusters are separated by turquoise stones.
Not to mention the countless additional pendants.
Thus these two necklaces are totally different, and it is my belief that the Baden necklace was never purchased for the Grand-Duchal collection, and should thus be dismissed from future discussion.
I believe above there has been discussed four totally different pieces, that are in no way connected:
1) The Baden Turquoise Necklace 2) The Grand-Duchess's Large Turquoise Necklace 3) The Grand-Duchess's Small Turquoise Necklace 4) The Grand-Duchess's Turquoise Tiara
(And also the Belgian Turquoise necklace was briefly mentioned).
--Previous Message-- : Your close ups are fantastic as always Tamara! : And I still say the Baden necklace is the : one GD Maria Teresa wore in Brussels in : April 2007 but remodeled. : On your last close up it is clearer : you : can perfectly distinguish the palmettes : dangling with some remodeling : two small : pendants added on each side of the palmette : on the central motif while on the following : one, on both side, they receive one larger : pendant upon each palmette. : : Now having seen the belgian turquoise : necklace you posted above (from Countess of : Flanders provenance), I'm pretty sure it is : GD Maria Teresa's one which was worn on : Finnish State Visit (2008 if I recall : correctly). If you put the girandole pendant : of the brooch dangling on the necklace, it : fits perfectly. This necklace was auctionned : the year before rather by Pss Maria : Gabriella of Savoy. Some of its stones could : have been constitute the current GD tiara in : addition of some of the Baden necklace. : : : : : : Thus in conclusion, my theory if I may say : so is : all the turquoises belonging to the : Countess of Flanders are now in the GD of : Luxembourg vault. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise : surrounded with diamonds is : "similar" design but not : identical...I am referring to your scan of : the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise : tiara worn by GD. : : Here is your scan rotated to see how it : would look as a tiara...and I can clearly : see that both jewels cannot be compared : because Baden design looks much older (more : refined)in its design than the one worn by : GD. : : : : Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting : similarities with the Belgien turquoise : parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, : which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for : its new owner. : : : As far as this turquoise necklace is : concerned (the clearest picture I have), : this is totally different necklace. To me it : looks like British version of diamond : necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the : pieces were removed to make earrings, which : is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off : topic now lol)...You can almost remove : second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of : another) and use them as earrings... : : what I am trying to say is that, this : necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore : as tiara and necklace...as I agree with : Boris, we are talking about 4 different : jewels that have no connection. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : : : : : :
The Duke and Duchess of Brabant recently (june 4th) celebrated their 12,5 wedding aniversary. If only HRH had bought this set for his wife. Still as long as it is for sale a Belgian Royal (the king or duke of Brabant) can buy it.
--Previous Message-- : The Belgian turquoise necklace is now for sale : at SJ Philips, so there is no possibility : that it is owned by the Grand-Duchess. : : : http://www.sjphillips.com/19th-century-turquoise-and-diamond-parure-comprising-fringe-necklace-pair-bracelets-forming-choker-pendant-brooch-and-pair-pendants-DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=6&tabindex=5&objectid=220506&categoryid=2055 : : What's more, comparing the Grand-Duchess : large turquoise necklace to the Baden : necklace, it is clear that although having : similar elements that they are different : pieces. : : For example in the Baden necklace, the : palmette motifs contain a large turquoise : stone, whereas in the Grand-duchess's : necklace con taints all diamond motifs. Also : the whole chain is different, whereas the : grand-duchess's large necklace contains : turquoise and diamond clusters separated by : diamond collets; whereas in the Baden : necklace, the clusters are separated by : turquoise stones. : : Not to mention the countless additional : pendants. : : Thus these two necklaces are totally : different, and it is my belief that the : Baden necklace was never purchased for the : Grand-Duchal collection, and should thus be : dismissed from future discussion. : : I believe above there has been discussed : four totally different pieces, that are in : no way connected: : : 1) The Baden Turquoise Necklace : 2) The Grand-Duchess's Large Turquoise : Necklace : 3) The Grand-Duchess's Small Turquoise : Necklace : 4) The Grand-Duchess's Turquoise Tiara : : (And also the Belgian Turquoise necklace was : briefly mentioned). : : --Previous Message-- : Your close ups are fantastic as always : Tamara! : And I still say the Baden necklace is the : one GD Maria Teresa wore in Brussels in : April 2007 but remodeled. : On your last close up it is clearer : you : can perfectly distinguish the palmettes : dangling with some remodeling : two small : pendants added on each side of the palmette : on the central motif while on the following : one, on both side, they receive one larger : pendant upon each palmette. : : Now having seen the belgian turquoise : necklace you posted above (from Countess of : Flanders provenance), I'm pretty sure it is : GD Maria Teresa's one which was worn on : Finnish State Visit (2008 if I recall : correctly). If you put the girandole pendant : of the brooch dangling on the necklace, it : fits perfectly. This necklace was auctionned : the year before rather by Pss Maria : Gabriella of Savoy. Some of its stones could : have been constitute the current GD tiara in : addition of some of the Baden necklace. : : : : : : Thus in conclusion, my theory if I may say : so is : all the turquoises belonging to the : Countess of Flanders are now in the GD of : Luxembourg vault. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise : surrounded with diamonds is : "similar" design but not : identical...I am referring to your scan of : the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise : tiara worn by GD. : : Here is your scan rotated to see how it : would look as a tiara...and I can clearly : see that both jewels cannot be compared : because Baden design looks much older (more : refined)in its design than the one worn by : GD. : : : : Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting : similarities with the Belgien turquoise : parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, : which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for : its new owner. : : : As far as this turquoise necklace is : concerned (the clearest picture I have), : this is totally different necklace. To me it : looks like British version of diamond : necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the : pieces were removed to make earrings, which : is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off : topic now lol)...You can almost remove : second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of : another) and use them as earrings... : : what I am trying to say is that, this : necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore : as tiara and necklace...as I agree with : Boris, we are talking about 4 different : jewels that have no connection. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : : : : : : : :
Boffer, thank you for providing the SJ Philips link and for summarizing the bottom line here, particularly for pointing out that the smaller of GD Maria Teresa's turquoise necklaces is by no means a smaller version of the other, grander necklace. It may sometimes be difficult to tell rather similar cluster settings apart, but I believe that you are entirely correct: We're looking at four different pieces here.
--Previous Message-- : The Belgian turquoise necklace is now for sale : at SJ Philips, so there is no possibility : that it is owned by the Grand-Duchess. : : : http://www.sjphillips.com/19th-century-turquoise-and-diamond-parure-comprising-fringe-necklace-pair-bracelets-forming-choker-pendant-brooch-and-pair-pendants-DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=6&tabindex=5&objectid=220506&categoryid=2055 : : What's more, comparing the Grand-Duchess : large turquoise necklace to the Baden : necklace, it is clear that although having : similar elements that they are different : pieces. : : For example in the Baden necklace, the : palmette motifs contain a large turquoise : stone, whereas in the Grand-duchess's : necklace con taints all diamond motifs. Also : the whole chain is different, whereas the : grand-duchess's large necklace contains : turquoise and diamond clusters separated by : diamond collets; whereas in the Baden : necklace, the clusters are separated by : turquoise stones. : : Not to mention the countless additional : pendants. : : Thus these two necklaces are totally : different, and it is my belief that the : Baden necklace was never purchased for the : Grand-Duchal collection, and should thus be : dismissed from future discussion. : : I believe above there has been discussed : four totally different pieces, that are in : no way connected: : : 1) The Baden Turquoise Necklace : 2) The Grand-Duchess's Large Turquoise : Necklace : 3) The Grand-Duchess's Small Turquoise : Necklace : 4) The Grand-Duchess's Turquoise Tiara : : (And also the Belgian Turquoise necklace was : briefly mentioned). : : --Previous Message-- : Your close ups are fantastic as always : Tamara! : And I still say the Baden necklace is the : one GD Maria Teresa wore in Brussels in : April 2007 but remodeled. : On your last close up it is clearer : you : can perfectly distinguish the palmettes : dangling with some remodeling : two small : pendants added on each side of the palmette : on the central motif while on the following : one, on both side, they receive one larger : pendant upon each palmette. : : Now having seen the belgian turquoise : necklace you posted above (from Countess of : Flanders provenance), I'm pretty sure it is : GD Maria Teresa's one which was worn on : Finnish State Visit (2008 if I recall : correctly). If you put the girandole pendant : of the brooch dangling on the necklace, it : fits perfectly. This necklace was auctionned : the year before rather by Pss Maria : Gabriella of Savoy. Some of its stones could : have been constitute the current GD tiara in : addition of some of the Baden necklace. : : : : : : Thus in conclusion, my theory if I may say : so is : all the turquoises belonging to the : Countess of Flanders are now in the GD of : Luxembourg vault. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise : surrounded with diamonds is : "similar" design but not : identical...I am referring to your scan of : the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise : tiara worn by GD. : : Here is your scan rotated to see how it : would look as a tiara...and I can clearly : see that both jewels cannot be compared : because Baden design looks much older (more : refined)in its design than the one worn by : GD. : : : : Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting : similarities with the Belgien turquoise : parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, : which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for : its new owner. : : : As far as this turquoise necklace is : concerned (the clearest picture I have), : this is totally different necklace. To me it : looks like British version of diamond : necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the : pieces were removed to make earrings, which : is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off : topic now lol)...You can almost remove : second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of : another) and use them as earrings... : : what I am trying to say is that, this : necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore : as tiara and necklace...as I agree with : Boris, we are talking about 4 different : jewels that have no connection. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : : : : : : : :
Does that mean that the late Grand Duchess inherited turquoise jewels from her great Grand mother Flanders ?
--Previous Message-- : The Belgian turquoise necklace is now for sale : at SJ Philips, so there is no possibility : that it is owned by the Grand-Duchess. : : : http://www.sjphillips.com/19th-century-turquoise-and-diamond-parure-comprising-fringe-necklace-pair-bracelets-forming-choker-pendant-brooch-and-pair-pendants-DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=6&tabindex=5&objectid=220506&categoryid=2055 : : What's more, comparing the Grand-Duchess : large turquoise necklace to the Baden : necklace, it is clear that although having : similar elements that they are different : pieces. : : For example in the Baden necklace, the : palmette motifs contain a large turquoise : stone, whereas in the Grand-duchess's : necklace con taints all diamond motifs. Also : the whole chain is different, whereas the : grand-duchess's large necklace contains : turquoise and diamond clusters separated by : diamond collets; whereas in the Baden : necklace, the clusters are separated by : turquoise stones. : : Not to mention the countless additional : pendants. : : Thus these two necklaces are totally : different, and it is my belief that the : Baden necklace was never purchased for the : Grand-Duchal collection, and should thus be : dismissed from future discussion. : : I believe above there has been discussed : four totally different pieces, that are in : no way connected: : : 1) The Baden Turquoise Necklace : 2) The Grand-Duchess's Large Turquoise : Necklace : 3) The Grand-Duchess's Small Turquoise : Necklace : 4) The Grand-Duchess's Turquoise Tiara : : (And also the Belgian Turquoise necklace was : briefly mentioned). : : --Previous Message-- : Your close ups are fantastic as always : Tamara! : And I still say the Baden necklace is the : one GD Maria Teresa wore in Brussels in : April 2007 but remodeled. : On your last close up it is clearer : you : can perfectly distinguish the palmettes : dangling with some remodeling : two small : pendants added on each side of the palmette : on the central motif while on the following : one, on both side, they receive one larger : pendant upon each palmette. : : Now having seen the belgian turquoise : necklace you posted above (from Countess of : Flanders provenance), I'm pretty sure it is : GD Maria Teresa's one which was worn on : Finnish State Visit (2008 if I recall : correctly). If you put the girandole pendant : of the brooch dangling on the necklace, it : fits perfectly. This necklace was auctionned : the year before rather by Pss Maria : Gabriella of Savoy. Some of its stones could : have been constitute the current GD tiara in : addition of some of the Baden necklace. : : : : : : Thus in conclusion, my theory if I may say : so is : all the turquoises belonging to the : Countess of Flanders are now in the GD of : Luxembourg vault. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise : surrounded with diamonds is : "similar" design but not : identical...I am referring to your scan of : the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise : tiara worn by GD. : : Here is your scan rotated to see how it : would look as a tiara...and I can clearly : see that both jewels cannot be compared : because Baden design looks much older (more : refined)in its design than the one worn by : GD. : : : : Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting : similarities with the Belgien turquoise : parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, : which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for : its new owner. : : : As far as this turquoise necklace is : concerned (the clearest picture I have), : this is totally different necklace. To me it : looks like British version of diamond : necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the : pieces were removed to make earrings, which : is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off : topic now lol)...You can almost remove : second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of : another) and use them as earrings... : : what I am trying to say is that, this : necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore : as tiara and necklace...as I agree with : Boris, we are talking about 4 different : jewels that have no connection. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : : : : : : : :
As you say it's your point of view but the Luxembourg turquoises have nothing in common with the turquoises formely belonging to the countess de Flandres except the same kind of stones.
--Previous Message-- : Your close ups are fantastic as always Tamara! : And I still say the Baden necklace is the : one GD Maria Teresa wore in Brussels in : April 2007 but remodeled. : On your last close up it is clearer : you : can perfectly distinguish the palmettes : dangling with some remodeling : two small : pendants added on each side of the palmette : on the central motif while on the following : one, on both side, they receive one larger : pendant upon each palmette. : : Now having seen the belgian turquoise : necklace you posted above (from Countess of : Flanders provenance), I'm pretty sure it is : GD Maria Teresa's one which was worn on : Finnish State Visit (2008 if I recall : correctly). If you put the girandole pendant : of the brooch dangling on the necklace, it : fits perfectly. This necklace was auctionned : the year before rather by Pss Maria : Gabriella of Savoy. Some of its stones could : have been constitute the current GD tiara in : addition of some of the Baden necklace. : : : : : : Thus in conclusion, my theory if I may say : so is : all the turquoises belonging to the : Countess of Flanders are now in the GD of : Luxembourg vault. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise : surrounded with diamonds is : "similar" design but not : identical...I am referring to your scan of : the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise : tiara worn by GD. : : Here is your scan rotated to see how it : would look as a tiara...and I can clearly : see that both jewels cannot be compared : because Baden design looks much older (more : refined)in its design than the one worn by : GD. : : : : Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting : similarities with the Belgien turquoise : parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, : which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for : its new owner. : : : As far as this turquoise necklace is : concerned (the clearest picture I have), : this is totally different necklace. To me it : looks like British version of diamond : necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the : pieces were removed to make earrings, which : is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off : topic now lol)...You can almost remove : second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of : another) and use them as earrings... : : what I am trying to say is that, this : necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore : as tiara and necklace...as I agree with : Boris, we are talking about 4 different : jewels that have no connection. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : : : : : :
Same kind of stones and a great similarity which indicates the same provenance : a grand parure of turquoises originaly belonging to the Countess of Flandres who knows ?
--Previous Message-- : As you say it's your point of view but the : Luxembourg turquoises have nothing in common : with the turquoises formely belonging to the : countess de Flandres except the same kind of : stones. : Radama
comparison turquoise necklaces and tiara - to Boffer
The necklace which is now with SJ Phillips can't be owned by the Grand-Duchess, I was wrong. However it may have been loaned when it was worn in 2008. About the Baden necklace comparison with the large one, let the picture speak for itself, I have no more comment. Boffer it's your belief that it was never purchased by the Luxembourgs but why "it should thus be dismissed from future discussion" ? I find this totally inappropriate. The time will tell if we will see again the large turquoise necklace on GD Maria Teresa or only the tiara from time to time. In any case, you would agree : this will always be a pleasure for the eyes.
--Previous Message-- : The Belgian turquoise necklace is now for sale : at SJ Philips, so there is no possibility : that it is owned by the Grand-Duchess. : : : http://www.sjphillips.com/19th-century-turquoise-and-diamond-parure-comprising-fringe-necklace-pair-bracelets-forming-choker-pendant-brooch-and-pair-pendants-DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=6&tabindex=5&objectid=220506&categoryid=2055 : : What's more, comparing the Grand-Duchess : large turquoise necklace to the Baden : necklace, it is clear that although having : similar elements that they are different : pieces. : : For example in the Baden necklace, the : palmette motifs contain a large turquoise : stone, whereas in the Grand-duchess's : necklace con taints all diamond motifs. Also : the whole chain is different, whereas the : grand-duchess's large necklace contains : turquoise and diamond clusters separated by : diamond collets; whereas in the Baden : necklace, the clusters are separated by : turquoise stones. : : Not to mention the countless additional : pendants. : : Thus these two necklaces are totally : different, and it is my belief that the : Baden necklace was never purchased for the : Grand-Duchal collection, and should thus be : dismissed from future discussion. : : I believe above there has been discussed : four totally different pieces, that are in : no way connected: : : 1) The Baden Turquoise Necklace : 2) The Grand-Duchess's Large Turquoise : Necklace : 3) The Grand-Duchess's Small Turquoise : Necklace : 4) The Grand-Duchess's Turquoise Tiara : : (And also the Belgian Turquoise necklace was : briefly mentioned). :
I don't think the grandduchess is wearing any of the turquoise pieces once owned by the Countess of Flanders. The necklace Marie inherited from her grandmother Stephanie de Beauharnais went to Henriette of Belgium, Duchess of Vendome. One of her descendants put it for sale a few years ago. It has some features that are similar to the necklace of the Grandduchess but as was pointed they are not the same. Princess Marie-José also had a convertable necklace/bandeau with earrings, two bracelets and a brooch. This is the one still for sale a Philips. Marie-José inherited several pieces from her grandmother the countess of Flanders among them the pearl tiara and earrings once owned by Stephanie de Beauharnais. She also received the turquoise (demi-)parure but i don't know if it was given by her grandmother or by her parents. Another jewel with Beauharnais connections that ended up with Marie-José and was auctioned off, was the Leuchtenberg diamond tiara. This piece was owned by the younger brother of the Italian queen, Charles count of Flanders who acted as regent for his brother after WWII. She must have inherited it when he passed away in the 80's. The tiara was never worn in public by the Queen or any of the Savoy princesses so it was a surprise when it showed up at auction. Unfortunately it wasn't bought by the Belgian Royals. In my view the tiara would have been a stunning gift for princess Elisabeth when she turns 18 and HM would have looked very fine with the pearl Beauharnais tiara and earrings. The Duchess of Brabant could do with the turquoise splash of colour in her jewelbox. At least for that last piece there is still an option for it being bought for a Belgian Royal. The tiara and earrings are now in the Castle at Manheim that Stephanie de Beauharnais resided at so won't be worn again. If i remember correctly the Leuchtenberg Tiara was sold to an Asian buyer.
--Previous Message-- : Does that mean that the late Grand Duchess : inherited turquoise jewels from her great : Grand mother Flanders ? : : --Previous Message-- : The Belgian turquoise necklace is now for : sale : at SJ Philips, so there is no possibility : that it is owned by the Grand-Duchess. : : : : http://www.sjphillips.com/19th-century-turquoise-and-diamond-parure-comprising-fringe-necklace-pair-bracelets-forming-choker-pendant-brooch-and-pair-pendants-DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=6&tabindex=5&objectid=220506&categoryid=2055 : : What's more, comparing the Grand-Duchess : large turquoise necklace to the Baden : necklace, it is clear that although having : similar elements that they are different : pieces. : : For example in the Baden necklace, the : palmette motifs contain a large turquoise : stone, whereas in the Grand-duchess's : necklace con taints all diamond motifs. Also : the whole chain is different, whereas the : grand-duchess's large necklace contains : turquoise and diamond clusters separated by : diamond collets; whereas in the Baden : necklace, the clusters are separated by : turquoise stones. : : Not to mention the countless additional : pendants. : : Thus these two necklaces are totally : different, and it is my belief that the : Baden necklace was never purchased for the : Grand-Duchal collection, and should thus be : dismissed from future discussion. : : I believe above there has been discussed : four totally different pieces, that are in : no way connected: : : 1) The Baden Turquoise Necklace : 2) The Grand-Duchess's Large Turquoise : Necklace : 3) The Grand-Duchess's Small Turquoise : Necklace : 4) The Grand-Duchess's Turquoise Tiara : : (And also the Belgian Turquoise necklace was : briefly mentioned). : : --Previous Message-- : Your close ups are fantastic as always : Tamara! : And I still say the Baden necklace is the : one GD Maria Teresa wore in Brussels in : April 2007 but remodeled. : On your last close up it is clearer : you : can perfectly distinguish the palmettes : dangling with some remodeling : two small : pendants added on each side of the palmette : on the central motif while on the following : one, on both side, they receive one larger : pendant upon each palmette. : : Now having seen the belgian turquoise : necklace you posted above (from Countess of : Flanders provenance), I'm pretty sure it is : GD Maria Teresa's one which was worn on : Finnish State Visit (2008 if I recall : correctly). If you put the girandole pendant : of the brooch dangling on the necklace, it : fits perfectly. This necklace was auctionned : the year before rather by Pss Maria : Gabriella of Savoy. Some of its stones could : have been constitute the current GD tiara in : addition of some of the Baden necklace. : : : : : : Thus in conclusion, my theory if I may say : so is : all the turquoises belonging to the : Countess of Flanders are now in the GD of : Luxembourg vault. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama...yes, the tear shape turquoise : surrounded with diamonds is : "similar" design but not : identical...I am referring to your scan of : the Baden turquoise necklace and turquoise : tiara worn by GD. : : Here is your scan rotated to see how it : would look as a tiara...and I can clearly : see that both jewels cannot be compared : because Baden design looks much older (more : refined)in its design than the one worn by : GD. : : : : Honestly, the Baden necklace has interesting : similarities with the Belgien turquoise : parure that was given to Maria Pia of Savoy, : which is now with SJ Phillips awaiting for : its new owner. : : : As far as this turquoise necklace is : concerned (the clearest picture I have), : this is totally different necklace. To me it : looks like British version of diamond : necklace of Queen Alexandra, where the : pieces were removed to make earrings, which : is now with Queen Sonja. (I am gong off : topic now lol)...You can almost remove : second element pieces (2 turquoise on top of : another) and use them as earrings... : : what I am trying to say is that, this : necklace is NOT the same as the one GD wore : as tiara and necklace...as I agree with : Boris, we are talking about 4 different : jewels that have no connection. : : : : : --Previous Message-- : I may be wrong but I don't agree with you : Boris. I explain it : : IMO the setting of the oval-shape pendants : on the Baden necklace are identical to those : of the tiara and the stones are of the same : size. Idem for the smaller turquoises and : the rounds ones. : : Indeed there are more stones in the tiara : but I think they could have been added and : the Baden necklace is not seen in its whole : part (see the picture I scanned for my first : post). : But above all, just my guesses. : : --Previous Message-- : Radama, that's an interesting theory, but: : - Only three pendants of the Baden necklace : resemble the design of the setting of all : the turquoises in the tiara : - The necklace does have larger and less : turquoises than the tiara : - There's no evidence that the Luxembourg : Grand ducal family bought the Baden necklace : in the first place : - I don't see the connection between tiara : and GD Maria Theresa's grand necklace : either, because the turquoises in the motifs : removed when the necklace was worn in its : shorter version are indeed larger than the : ones in the tiara - see Tamara's post above. : : In other words, I'm sorry but I don't think : that your theory is correct. : IMO, the tiara, GD Maria Teresa's necklace : and the Baden necklace are three different : pieces. : : : : : : : : : : :
It's not because the jewels have similarities that they had the same owner. There is absolutely no evidence. Stop telling nonsense.
--Previous Message-- : Same kind of stones and a great similarity : which indicates the same provenance : a : grand parure of turquoises originaly : belonging to the Countess of Flandres who : knows ? : : --Previous Message-- : As you say it's your point of view but the : Luxembourg turquoises have nothing in common : with the turquoises formely belonging to the : countess de Flandres except the same kind of : stones. : : :
I 've said : "who knows?" There is similarity and similarity. Look at the close-ups in the threads above : when you have many stones of the same setting (even the number of diamonds), the same shape and two jewels of the same design, because of the family connection it is allowed to make a link between them. Stones can be removed and replaced on all jewels. Telling non sense fits well to you, if you disagree it's also your total right !
--Previous Message-- : It's not because the jewels have similarities : that they had the same owner. There is : absolutely no evidence. Stop telling : nonsense. : : --Previous Message-- : Same kind of stones and a great similarity : which indicates the same provenance : a : grand parure of turquoises originaly : belonging to the Countess of Flandres who : knows ? : : --Previous Message-- : As you say it's your point of view but the : Luxembourg turquoises have nothing in common : with the turquoises formely belonging to the : countess de Flandres except the same kind of : stones. : : : : : Radama
Re: who knows
Posted by Boris on June 29, 2012, 7:27 am, in reply to "Re: who knows" 84.131.68.177
Radama, you have to understand that unless there is pictorial evidence or a reliable source presenting evidence, the 'who knows' falls under the category 'pure speculation', and in this case the pure speculation has for the most part proven to be incorrect. The concern of other posters here is IMO that all too easily, a certain piece of jewelry is suddenly described elsewhere as 'said to have belonged to X' or 'altered from piece Y to piece Z', only because of pure speculation; this has happened before, and these kind of myths and false infos are not very helpful for assembling accurate facts.
--Previous Message-- : I 've said : "who knows?" There is : similarity and similarity. Look at the : close-ups in the threads above : when you : have many stones of the same setting (even : the number of diamonds), the same shape and : two jewels of the same design, because of : the family connection it is allowed to make : a link between them. Stones can be removed : and replaced on all jewels. : Telling non sense fits well to you, if you : disagree it's also your total right ! : : --Previous Message-- : It's not because the jewels have : similarities : that they had the same owner. There is : absolutely no evidence. Stop telling : nonsense. : : --Previous Message-- : Same kind of stones and a great similarity : which indicates the same provenance : a : grand parure of turquoises originaly : belonging to the Countess of Flandres who : knows ? : : --Previous Message-- : As you say it's your point of view but the : Luxembourg turquoises have nothing in common : with the turquoises formely belonging to the : countess de Flandres except the same kind of : stones. : : : : : : :
Given that the earrings are faux, it is quite possible that the necklace is as well. I have always thought that it looked rather like a Kenneth Jay Lane piece, personally.
--Previous Message-- : That's a very good question. : As this grand demi-parure has not been worn : by any other of the present Bernadotte : ladies (like CP Margaret's laurel leaf : tiara, which is unquestionably Lilian's : private property), it should be most likely : in her personal possession. : But its provenance is something of a : mystery. There is no record of a previous : Swedish Royal wearing the set, and another : odd fact is that Lilian only started to wear : it in public in the second half of the : 1990s. : A certain very knowledgeable poster here : once hinted at the possibility that the : turquoises might have a royal provenance : indeed and found their way back to the main : Bernadotte family branch. : Another good view of earrings, necklace and : ring: : : : : : : --Previous Message-- : Are the turquoise jewellery worn by Princess : Lillian her own personal property? : : --Previous Message-- : ...and yet another Duchess (of Halland ) : with : her turquoises: : : : : : --Previous Message-- : And another Duchess shows off her : turquoises! : : : : : : : : : : :
) with her turquoises: 
