Posted by Scott
on 1/1/2009, 5:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Gay and Smoking"
216.80.38.236
Kris,
I'll be clear upfront that I do not mind being referred to as "different" based simply on relative percentages of gay vs. straight sexualities. I will state that it is incorrect to say that I chose to be attracted to men over women; I DID choose to act on that attraction, but that doesn't mean that the attraction did not exist before I acted on it.
What we are talking about is behavior. All behavior can be attributed to one or more of three types of causality: 1) biological [including genetics and uterine environment; 2) conditioning [subconscious mental influence] and 3) learning [conscious, intentional mental influence].
Being Gay: I would argue that this is almost strictly biological (but whether genetic or uterine, I don't know, and nobody knows); there may be a conditioning or learning component, but that is hard for me to imagine. Example: did you choose to be attracted to women? I don't think so. You are biologically hard-wired for that attraction.
Smoking: this may have all three components. It may be biological based on the influence of nicotine in our mothers' bodies when they were pregnant with us; again, I'll argue that there is no reason to see why smoking would encoded in the genome, and to be positively selected for via natural selection. It may be conditioned; you mentioned that you grew up in a smoking household, and it was always present, and no one made a big deal about it; it was just part of your subconscious (and conscious) environment, so it became part of your psyche. Learning may also be involved; speaking for myself, I learned to correlate smoking with masculinity (while intentionally ignoring women who smoked, no offense intended to anyone), so I rationalized ("learned") that smoking would make me more masculine.
One could write dissertations on these topics, and still not reach a definitive answer. I offer the above as a purely intellectual exchange, without emotion. The only exception to that emotion is that I must insist that being gay is as biologically hard-wired into me as your being straight is biologically hard-wired into you. Why that is, I can't say, but I certainly didn't have a choice in the matter.
Cheers,
Scott
--Previous Message--
: Happy New Year to you as well. With all due
: respect Scott, I disagree. You were born
: the same as me. You didn't hold hands with
: other babies in the ward, just as I wasn't
: smoking at the time of birth. I had a
: "different" attraction to smoking
: that evolved as I was growing up, the same
: as you had a "different"
: attraction that evolved. At one point you
: must have "chosen" a man over a
: woman. Why? At one point I
: "chose" to smoke? Why? As for
: knowing the health consequences... I
: honestly didn't. Sure there was talk about
: it being "bad" for you, but
: everyone in the family did it so it couldn't
: have REALLY been THAT bad. It was like
: saying fries were bad for you for me.
: Everyone ate them, so it REALLY couldn't be
: that bad. Not like everyone would have some
: fries and drop dead... just like cigarettes.
: People smoked when I grew up and most of
: them are still around today 30 years later
: and most are still smoking. So to sum up
: how "I" feel - and I have thought
: about this alot... yes I do agree that
: environment must have played a big role -
: but there MUST be something else. However,
: I think to say that environment played no
: role for you is unfair. In my mind we are
: talking about two parallel issues. Both
: feel compelled to be "different"
: than others for some reason, and do not feel
: like we are ourselves if we are not
: "different" in our own way. Genes
: or environment. Point is, is that SOMETHING
: has effected us so strongly that we perceive
: that the word "choice" is not
: applicable. It is just who we are. Please
: do not be offended by the word
: "different". I work with a gay
: guy and he is super. So no disrepect there
: at all... But you must concede that gay
: people are in the minority and thus the
: definition of "different" from the
: mainstream applies.
: Again, I appreciate your feedback as it is
: all coming together for me about people's
: different views. Thanks. I am interested
: in your response.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: Kris,
:
: As a gay closet smoker, I would like to
: provide a bit of perspective. I was born
: gay, and it involves no choice (and no
: option to choose) on my part; therefore, I
: expect that to be accepted without judgment.
:
: However, starting smoking is a choice (I
: have heard people talk about a "smoking
: gene"; as a trained biologist, I can
: assure you that it would be more
: environmental influence than genetic, as
: there is no selective reason for the genome
: to favor a tendency to smoke).
:
: Because most of us started smoking AFTER we
: knew the health consequences, I believe many
: of us in the closet just don't want to be
: thought of as stupid.
:
: I hope this provides some insight into why
: your professional colleague reacted as he
: did. Happy New Year!
:
: --Previous Message--
: Thanks Daniel! That is a well thought out
: reply that I very much appreciate. I'll
: tell you what really bothered me about the
: professional when I mentioned my issue... I
: was trying to think of how to explain it,
: and I came up with the gay person parallel.
: I explained that I could understand how
: difficult it must be those gay people to
: come "out of the closet" as the
: reasons in my mind are the same. Not gay
: here by the way! Just was trying to put
: some gravity to my issue for him. Well the
: professional literally laughed and said
: "well this obviously isn't the same
: type of thing we are talking about".
: That really bugged me. Now I am a very
: non-judgemental person... but when I think
: about it, it seems "strange" to me
: that a person being gay is more accepted
: than a person being a smoker. Now please
: noone take that the wrong way! I am not
: saying there is anything wrong with people's
: own choices... it just gets to me that some
: people's choices are more accepted than
: others. People believe that it is not a
: choice for people to be gay and generally
: congratulate them for being who they are,
: yet they believe it is a choice to smoke and
: put down people who have made that choice.
: Now that is a whole other subject. I
: honestly don't feel as though it is a
: "choice" for me. Grandparents,
: parents, parents friends, etc all smoked
: when I was young. I grew up in a house and
: car filled with smoke. It is my belief that
: there must have been something in my head or
: my genes that MADE me a smoker. Why else
: would I have always done this alone, had no
: friends (other than the two girlfriends) who
: smoked, and have continually felt so guilty
: about it. Hmm.
:
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