Posted by Kris on 1/2/2009, 3:53 am, in reply to "Re: Gay and Smoking"
207.216.1.117
Ok. I am happy with the third reason you gave that I never thought of. I believed if I didn't feel smoking was a "choice" of mine (didn't do it to look cool or anything, or fit it), it MUST be in the genes. However you are correct when you said it could be "conditioning" on a sub-concious level. So having smoking be "normal" in my family probably registered underneath. And the general opinion of society, which had changed since they started smoking, was that it is "not normal". This probably resulted in being in the closet about it. While this doesn't help me in my situation, it does help me understand the possible reason things are the way they are.
Interesting exchange. Thanks.
--Previous Message--
: Kris,
:
: I'll be clear upfront that I do not mind
: being referred to as "different"
: based simply on relative percentages of gay
: vs. straight sexualities. I will state that
: it is incorrect to say that I chose to be
: attracted to men over women; I DID choose to
: act on that attraction, but that doesn't
: mean that the attraction did not exist
: before I acted on it.
:
: What we are talking about is behavior. All
: behavior can be attributed to one or more of
: three types of causality: 1) biological
: [including genetics and uterine environment;
: 2) conditioning [subconscious mental
: influence] and 3) learning [conscious,
: intentional mental influence].
:
: Being Gay: I would argue that this is
: almost strictly biological (but whether
: genetic or uterine, I don't know, and nobody
: knows); there may be a conditioning or
: learning component, but that is hard for me
: to imagine. Example: did you choose to be
: attracted to women? I don't think so. You
: are biologically hard-wired for that
: attraction.
:
: Smoking: this may have all three
: components. It may be biological based on
: the influence of nicotine in our mothers'
: bodies when they were pregnant with us;
: again, I'll argue that there is no reason to
: see why smoking would encoded in the genome,
: and to be positively selected for via
: natural selection. It may be conditioned;
: you mentioned that you grew up in a smoking
: household, and it was always present, and no
: one made a big deal about it; it was just
: part of your subconscious (and conscious)
: environment, so it became part of your
: psyche. Learning may also be involved;
: speaking for myself, I learned to correlate
: smoking with masculinity (while
: intentionally ignoring women who smoked, no
: offense intended to anyone), so I
: rationalized ("learned") that
: smoking would make me more masculine.
:
: One could write dissertations on these
: topics, and still not reach a definitive
: answer. I offer the above as a purely
: intellectual exchange, without emotion. The
: only exception to that emotion is that I
: must insist that being gay is as
: biologically hard-wired into me as your
: being straight is biologically hard-wired
: into you. Why that is, I can't say, but I
: certainly didn't have a choice in the
: matter.
:
: Cheers,
: Scott
:
: --Previous Message--
: Happy New Year to you as well. With all due
: respect Scott, I disagree. You were born
: the same as me. You didn't hold hands with
: other babies in the ward, just as I wasn't
: smoking at the time of birth. I had a
: "different" attraction to smoking
: that evolved as I was growing up, the same
: as you had a "different"
: attraction that evolved. At one point you
: must have "chosen" a man over a
: woman. Why? At one point I
: "chose" to smoke? Why? As for
: knowing the health consequences... I
: honestly didn't. Sure there was talk about
: it being "bad" for you, but
: everyone in the family did it so it couldn't
: have REALLY been THAT bad. It was like
: saying fries were bad for you for me.
: Everyone ate them, so it REALLY couldn't be
: that bad. Not like everyone would have some
: fries and drop dead... just like cigarettes.
: People smoked when I grew up and most of
: them are still around today 30 years later
: and most are still smoking. So to sum up
: how "I" feel - and I have thought
: about this alot... yes I do agree that
: environment must have played a big role -
: but there MUST be something else. However,
: I think to say that environment played no
: role for you is unfair. In my mind we are
: talking about two parallel issues. Both
: feel compelled to be "different"
: than others for some reason, and do not feel
: like we are ourselves if we are not
: "different" in our own way. Genes
: or environment. Point is, is that SOMETHING
: has effected us so strongly that we perceive
: that the word "choice" is not
: applicable. It is just who we are. Please
: do not be offended by the word
: "different". I work with a gay
: guy and he is super. So no disrepect there
: at all... But you must concede that gay
: people are in the minority and thus the
: definition of "different" from the
: mainstream applies.
: Again, I appreciate your feedback as it is
: all coming together for me about people's
: different views. Thanks. I am interested
: in your response.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: Kris,
:
: As a gay closet smoker, I would like to
: provide a bit of perspective. I was born
: gay, and it involves no choice (and no
: option to choose) on my part; therefore, I
: expect that to be accepted without judgment.
:
: However, starting smoking is a choice (I
: have heard people talk about a "smoking
: gene"; as a trained biologist, I can
: assure you that it would be more
: environmental influence than genetic, as
: there is no selective reason for the genome
: to favor a tendency to smoke).
:
: Because most of us started smoking AFTER we
: knew the health consequences, I believe many
: of us in the closet just don't want to be
: thought of as stupid.
:
: I hope this provides some insight into why
: your professional colleague reacted as he
: did. Happy New Year!
:
: --Previous Message--
: Thanks Daniel! That is a well thought out
: reply that I very much appreciate. I'll
: tell you what really bothered me about the
: professional when I mentioned my issue... I
: was trying to think of how to explain it,
: and I came up with the gay person parallel.
: I explained that I could understand how
: difficult it must be those gay people to
: come "out of the closet" as the
: reasons in my mind are the same. Not gay
: here by the way! Just was trying to put
: some gravity to my issue for him. Well the
: professional literally laughed and said
: "well this obviously isn't the same
: type of thing we are talking about".
: That really bugged me. Now I am a very
: non-judgemental person... but when I think
: about it, it seems "strange" to me
: that a person being gay is more accepted
: than a person being a smoker. Now please
: noone take that the wrong way! I am not
: saying there is anything wrong with people's
: own choices... it just gets to me that some
: people's choices are more accepted than
: others. People believe that it is not a
: choice for people to be gay and generally
: congratulate them for being who they are,
: yet they believe it is a choice to smoke and
: put down people who have made that choice.
: Now that is a whole other subject. I
: honestly don't feel as though it is a
: "choice" for me. Grandparents,
: parents, parents friends, etc all smoked
: when I was young. I grew up in a house and
: car filled with smoke. It is my belief that
: there must have been something in my head or
: my genes that MADE me a smoker. Why else
: would I have always done this alone, had no
: friends (other than the two girlfriends) who
: smoked, and have continually felt so guilty
: about it. Hmm.
:
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