Posted by Andy
on 1/2/2009, 8:09 am, in reply to "Re: Interesting situation"
75.53.143.107
Interesting discussion!
As SC46 and Dave point out, smokers are a much-persecuted minority. There are many reasons for it, from simewhat justified but overblown IMHO concerns about second hand smoke to the fact as Dave says that smokers themselves view their habit negatively.
But I think the biggest issue is that our society is becoming more and more prone to the majority trying to dictate to the minority what they can and can't do. As another gay closet smoker, I see a lot of parallels between how smokers are treated and the anti gay marriage fervor. In both cases, again in my opinion, justifiable concerns to keep the minority from doing what it wants are sketchy, and so various thin arguments are trumped up to whip the majority into a fervor. When what it really comes down to is the majority doesn't like that minority group or what it stands for, and increasingly turns that dislike into trying to legislate against it.
If you put a complete tobacco ban on the California ballot, I don't think it would win, but I think it might get 40%. And in five or ten years, given the trend, I think it could win. Should it? Heck no. I'm all for reasonable restrictions on smoking where there are legitimate public health issues. But I think the majority doesn't take reasonableness into account when whipped up into a frenzy against something it just doesn't like. Banning trans fats, taxing fast food, firing police and fire who smoke on their own time away from the job, what's next?
I think what's really needed is a move away from this general trend away from majorities being able to inflict their beliefs on minorities whose behavior really doesn't affect them, but they flat out just don't like. I wish I knew how to accomplish it. For gay marriage, there's a clear trend toward the majority coming around on the subject. For smokers, just the opposite. But I wish the whole trend of the majority inflicting its beliefs on the minority for no reason would go away.
On another note I truly enjoyed the discussion between Scott and Kris on the parallels between being gay and being a smoker. So nice to see a discussion remain respectful despite some difference in opinion. I agree with Scott that being gay has its basis in genetics not choice. But if you accept for the moment that being gay is genetic while smoking is a choice, that fact does not make it any more legitimate in my view for the majority to restrict it.
--Previous Message--
: Respectfully, I think that such calls to arms
: for smokers sort of miss the point, as they
: always assume that smokers are victims and a
: select group of anti-smokers are the
: perpetrators of a long list of injustices
: against smokers.
:
: I'd submit the following for careful thought
: and inner reflection: Most smokers actually
: agree with most anti-smokers, in that they
: feel or believe that smoking is
: "bad" in a variety of ways--bad
: for their pocketbooks, bad for their health,
: etc. Most smokers also view their own
: smoking habits as a weakness, or a sign of
: weakness. If they didn't believe such
: things, then it would be downright
: impossible for them to feel the shame that
: anti-smokers are supposedly foisting upon
: them, and they'd be a lot more riled up
: about all of the laws that make it more
: expensive and inconvenient to be a smoker.
: No one can MAKE another person feel shame;
: shame is a personal, internal feeling of
: guilt or impropriety caused by an
: individual's own conscience.
:
: So it's really not about convincing smokers
: to grow a spine--it's about convincing
: smokers to believe that smoking is an
: overall positive, or at LEAST neutral,
: attribute for a person to have. For closet
: smokers, it's not so much about the risk of
: others knowing they smoke--that risk
: wouldn't be important to mention if the
: smoker felt internally justified. It becomes
: an issue not because of the judgment of
: folks around them, but because the SMOKER
: believes that the habit is unhealthy,
: unclean, a sign of weakness. The truth or
: factual nature of any of these negatives is
: almost immaterial--if the smoker believes
: them, they might as well be true. And it
: seems clear to me that most smokers believe
: that their habit is something to be ashamed
: of.
:
: Dave
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
:
: I have been following this thread and the
: comments to Kris. For the most part the
: comments have been well thought out and
: generally well intentioned. The whole
: concept of being a closet smoker is a sad
: commentary on our society. For years we have
: been bombarded with this study and that
: study and the whole public relations blitz
: against smoking tobacco. I think smokers, as
: a group, have born the blunt of these
: attacks and quietly accepted their
: propaganda to the point of cowering in fear
: of offending someone, paying taxes out the
: nose, risking loss of job, paying fines if
: you happen to be smoking in the wrong area.
:
: Despite all the crap, there still seems to
: be 20 to 30% percent of the population who
: enjoy the experience of smoking and are
: willing to put up with the stigma of being a
: smoker and say yes on some survey. There
: must also be another significant percentage
: who would never admit to being a smoker.
:
: Politically speaking, that is a significant
: number of people. There are many other
: groups that carry enough political clout to
: have there interests promoted. If we as
: smokers would just grow a spine and make
: make our voice heard perhaps we could
: protect ourselves from this drum beat to
: treat smokers as stupid morons.
:
: If you are a closet smoker you need to
: evaluate the risk of some people knowing you
: are a smoker. The great majority will have
: no problem with you being a smoker. Other
: smokers would certainly understand your
: choice to enjoy cigarette smoke. After that,
: the range of opinion could very greatly.
: Those that might have a problem with your
: choice would have to be evaluated as to
: whether or not they would have any ability
: to limit your freedom. (Financial,Job,
: etc.).
:
: Based on an honest assessment you should be
: able to decide when and where you smoke. If
: you enjoy smoking you should be able to
: smoke where you want to. Other people don't
: have a right to not be offended. You are
: still the same person. Does it really matter
: if you are a smoker. If it really matters
: that much, that person has control of your
: life. You have to decide if you can live
: with that.
:
: Sorry for being so long winded. I need a
: smoke!
: Storm!
:
:
:
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