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Sinatra conducts
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on June 6, 2023, 4:03 pm
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Des Hutchinson on June 7, 2023, 4:35 am, in reply to "Sinatra conducts"
While not mentioning conducting, in Putting the Record Straight (Secker & Warburg 1981), John Culshaw provides an appraisal of Sinatra, whom he met in New York, which suggests a wider musicality:
"Over the years I fear I have frequently offended academics by recommending a study of Sinatra's style to students who asked questions about phrasing, emphasis and legato in a vocal line. Sinatra never had much of a voice as such, but what he did with what he had provided a lesson which no student of the voice could afford to ignore. In particular, his Capitol recording called Close to You, made with the Hollywood String Quartet and various British émigrés such as Reginald Kell on the clarinet and Arthur Cleghorn on the flute, showed precisely how he could transform material which in other hands sounded insignificant."
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on June 7, 2023, 1:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
I find that very interesting concerning Sinatra's recordings with the Hollywood String Quartet and - particularly - the clarinettist Reginald Kell. Kell was, as some might know, the son-in-law of the composer Joseph Holbrooke. Holbrooke's son, Gwydion Brooke, told me that his own wife was particularly fond of Frank Sinatra, but I don't know if the family connection held any sway in the matter !
The business of cross-over musicians interests me very much especially when somewhere in their histories you find connections with some major figure in the world of more serious music that comes as a surprise, such as "Fats" Waller having studied at one time with Leopold Godowsky. Was Sinatra a trained musician? I've often thought of him in the same league as Bing Crosby who , in spite of his mellifluous voice, marvellous style and his having "a way" with a song doesn't seem to have been able to read a note.
Previous Message
While not mentioning conducting, in Putting the Record Straight (Secker & Warburg 1981), John Culshaw provides an appraisal of Sinatra, whom he met in New York, which suggests a wider musicality:
"Over the years I fear I have frequently offended academics by recommending a study of Sinatra's style to students who asked questions about phrasing, emphasis and legato in a vocal line. Sinatra never had much of a voice as such, but what he did with what he had provided a lesson which no student of the voice could afford to ignore. In particular, his Capitol recording called Close to You , made with the Hollywood String Quartet and various British émigrés such as Reginald Kell on the clarinet and Arthur Cleghorn on the flute, showed precisely how he could transform material which in other hands sounded insignificant."
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Alex Segal on June 7, 2023, 11:30 pm, in reply to "Sinatra conducts"
In her autobiography, Peggy Lee is full of praise for Sinatra’s role in this recording. She describes him as a “marvellously sensitive conductor”, and says that the concept of the album was his. The fact that Sinatra and Lee were great friends may contribute to the effusiveness of her praise. But given the musicality of Sinatra’s singing and the force of his personality, I do not find it all that surprising that he could take on the role of conductor.
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on June 8, 2023, 1:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
Thanks , Alex for that. Nevertheless I am surprised that Sinatra was accepted as a conductor, purely for musical reasons (although if , as seems likely, he provided financial backing I'm not surprised). I was reading a book "I paid the piper" written by a concert agent where he tells of a top-class British orchestra refusing to play under the conductorship of Louis Kentner - a first-rate pianist, musician and a composer - because he was not known in that role. I mentioned Danny Kaye whose balletic grace allowed him to stand in front of an orchestra and wave his arms about impressively and get reasonable results in popular pieces. The fact that he didn't really know what was required of him exists in a recording of his conducting of the Trepak from the Nutcracker in a public performance (Stockholm Philharmonic I think) which almost ends in a complete pile-up because Kaye just beats faster and faster without any notion of control.
Getting good, sensitive results from an orchestra isn't always ensured by having a professional conductor in charge as numerous cd issues testify.
I'm wondering if the parts of the arrangements of Riddle were so extensively marked and the orchestra so familiar with his style - not to mention the possibility of extensive rehearsals prior to the recordings - that the orchestra played largely on auto-pilot giving Sinatra (who they'd probably often worked with as an accompanying band) the impression that it was he who was achieving such fine results. The purely orchestral disc intrigues me....I shall have to try to find it.
Previous Message
In her autobiography, Peggy Lee is full of praise for Sinatra’s role in this recording. She describes him as a “marvellously sensitive conductor”, and says that the concept of the album was his. The fact that Sinatra and Lee were great friends may contribute to the effusiveness of her praise. But given the musicality of Sinatra’s singing and the force of his personality, I do not find it all that surprising that he could take on the role of conductor.
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Alex Segal on June 8, 2023, 9:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
According to the conductor Leonard Slatkin, his father - the conductor and violinist Felix Slatkin - was Sinatra’s conducting coach for the recordings he (Sinatra) conducted. But Leonard Slatkin does not claim that his father was the real musical director - with Sinatra as just a front or a puppet. I do agree that there is something surprising about Sinatra’s taking on the role of conductor - I don’t think he could read music. But I think that if he was not respected in this role by the musicians he conducted, we would probably have heard of it by now.
Previous Message
Thanks , Alex for that. Nevertheless I am surprised that Sinatra was accepted as a conductor, purely for musical reasons (although if , as seems likely, he provided financial backing I'm not surprised). I was reading a book "I paid the piper" written by a concert agent where he tells of a top-class British orchestra refusing to play under the conductorship of Louis Kentner - a first-rate pianist, musician and a composer - because he was not known in that role. I mentioned Danny Kaye whose balletic grace allowed him to stand in front of an orchestra and wave his arms about impressively and get reasonable results in popular pieces. The fact that he didn't really know what was required of him exists in a recording of his conducting of the Trepak from the Nutcracker in a public performance (Stockholm Philharmonic I think) which almost ends in a complete pile-up because Kaye just beats faster and faster without any notion of control.
Getting good, sensitive results from an orchestra isn't always ensured by having a professional conductor in charge as numerous cd issues testify.
I'm wondering if the parts of the arrangements of Riddle were so extensively marked and the orchestra so familiar with his style - not to mention the possibility of extensive rehearsals prior to the recordings - that the orchestra played largely on auto-pilot giving Sinatra (who they'd probably often worked with as an accompanying band) the impression that it was he who was achieving such fine results. The purely orchestral disc intrigues me....I shall have to try to find it.
Previous Message
In her autobiography, Peggy Lee is full of praise for Sinatra’s role in this recording. She describes him as a “marvellously sensitive conductor”, and says that the concept of the album was his. The fact that Sinatra and Lee were great friends may contribute to the effusiveness of her praise. But given the musicality of Sinatra’s singing and the force of his personality, I do not find it all that surprising that he could take on the role of conductor.
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Jeffrey Davis on July 26, 2023, 6:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
I was very interested and surprised to discover that Frank Sinatra was apparently an admirer of Vaughan Williams.
Previous Message
In her autobiography, Peggy Lee is full of praise for Sinatra’s role in this recording. She describes him as a “marvellously sensitive conductor”, and says that the concept of the album was his. The fact that Sinatra and Lee were great friends may contribute to the effusiveness of her praise. But given the musicality of Sinatra’s singing and the force of his personality, I do not find it all that surprising that he could take on the role of conductor.
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Alex Segal on July 27, 2023, 2:55 am, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
Given the love for Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky and Brahms evident in Sinatra’s recordings of “Full Moon and Empty Arms”, “None But the Lonely Heart” and “Cradle Song”, I am not surprised that Sinatra loved Vaughan Williams. Also his recording of “Ebb Tide” suggests he appreciated the capacity of an orchestra to evoke the sea - an evocation of which Vaughan Williams was a master.
I think I am unusual in wishing that the greatest pop singers had sometimes sung modern art song - songs in which the words are so important. I’d love to hear Matt Monro sing Vaughan Williams’ “Let Beauty Awake”; or Sinatra or Andy Williams or Tony Bennett sing Ned Rorem’s “Early in the Morning”; or Judy Garland sing Britten’s “Before Feeling and After” or Samuel Barber’s “The Crucifixion”; or Rosemary Clooney sing Richard Hundley’s “Come Ready and See Me”. Amongst classical singers who sing in English, Peter Pears, Janet Baker, Benjamin Luxon and Frederica Von Stade do have a wonderful feeling for the words they sing. But such feeling is even more evident in the singing of the greatest pop singers.
Previous Message
I was very interested and surprised to discover that Frank Sinatra was apparently an admirer of Vaughan Williams.
Previous Message
In her autobiography, Peggy Lee is full of praise for Sinatra’s role in this recording. She describes him as a “marvellously sensitive conductor”, and says that the concept of the album was his. The fact that Sinatra and Lee were great friends may contribute to the effusiveness of her praise. But given the musicality of Sinatra’s singing and the force of his personality, I do not find it all that surprising that he could take on the role of conductor.
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on July 27, 2023, 11:31 am, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
I wonder if the more-evident feeling in the greatest pop singers which you noted is due to the fact that the words and music of popular song have usually been created in harness and are, in some ways, easier to sing than a score which has been added on to verse that a poet never intended for music. The wonderfully witty verse of Gilbert created together with the music of Sullivan really requires a performer particularly in tune with the idiom to do it full-justice (although I know that Danny Kaye made some succesful recordings of various songs and Kenny Baker was an excellent Nanki-Poo in the 1939 film of The Mikado). Unfortunately all of the singers you mentioned are no-longer alive. The wonderfully-accomplished Cleo Laine is, happily, still with us but has long-since retired; it's a pity she never gave her attention to anything from the "Serious" song repertoire, although she made a very succesful recording , together with the late Annie Ross, of Facade.
When it comes to the opposite side of the coin - opera singers performing jazz and light music - I'm not so sure that this is always a succesful exercise as I feel that, often, their style of singing doesn't suit the music. Maybe the recordings of Renata Tebaldi and Mario del Monaco singing show-songs make me wince because of the almost unintelligible attempts they make at the English language. Kiri Te Kanawa and Jessye Norman are notable in being able to sing the lighter repertoire, but when I hear the records of Benjamin Luxon and Bryn Terfel singing such pieces, good as they are, I get the impression of great opera-singers taking a busman's holiday.
Previous Message
Given the love for Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky and Brahms evident in Sinatra’s recordings of “Full Moon and Empty Arms”, “None But the Lonely Heart” and “Cradle Song”, I am not surprised that Sinatra loved Vaughan Williams. Also his recording of “Ebb Tide” suggests he appreciated the capacity of an orchestra to evoke the sea - an evocation of which Vaughan Williams was a master.
I think I am unusual in wishing that the greatest pop singers had sometimes sung modern art song - songs in which the words are so important. I’d love to hear Matt Monro sing Vaughan Williams’ “Let Beauty Awake”; or Sinatra or Andy Williams or Tony Bennett sing Ned Rorem’s “Early in the Morning”; or Judy Garland sing Britten’s “Before Feeling and After” or Samuel Barber’s “The Crucifixion”; or Rosemary Clooney sing Richard Hundley’s “Come Ready and See Me”. Amongst classical singers who sing in English, Peter Pears, Janet Baker, Benjamin Luxon and Frederica Von Stade do have a wonderful feeling for the words they sing. But such feeling is even more evident in the singing of the greatest pop singers.
Previous Message
I was very interested and surprised to discover that Frank Sinatra was apparently an admirer of Vaughan Williams.
Previous Message
In her autobiography, Peggy Lee is full of praise for Sinatra’s role in this recording. She describes him as a “marvellously sensitive conductor”, and says that the concept of the album was his. The fact that Sinatra and Lee were great friends may contribute to the effusiveness of her praise. But given the musicality of Sinatra’s singing and the force of his personality, I do not find it all that surprising that he could take on the role of conductor.
Previous Message
I have a vinyl album, "The Man I Love"..."Peggy Lee sings, Frank Sinatra conducts, the arrangements are by Nelson Riddle" where the sleeve note states "In his album 'Tone poems of Color' he (Sinatra) displayed impressive skill as the conductor of purely instrumental music." Well, some of us older ones will remember Danny Kaye gesticulating wildly in front of various top-rank orchestras without appearing to know exactly what he was doing....but Sinatra ? The accompaniments on the album are quite sensitively handled and I began to wonder what particular accomplishments Sinatra had to achieve such results. Was Nelson Riddle the "eminence grise" in the recording studio that the musicians were actually following ?
Perhaps some of the experts in the field of lighter music who post here occasionally might know the answer.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on June 16, 2023, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Sinatra conducts"
I mentioned earlier in this thread that Fats Waller, the great jazzman, studied at the Juillard school and that one of his teachers was Leopold Godowsky. It seems he also studied with the German-born composer Carl Bohm (1844-1920) ultra-prolific composer of salon music bearing such titles as "Pluie de perles", "Petite bijouterie" and "Jeu de libelles" with 397 opus numbers to his credit many of them consisting of multiple separate pieces. The Wikipedia article says that he is regarded as one of the leading German songwriters of the 19th. century....will somebody let Schumann, Mendelssohn and Brahms know about the competition ? Apparently he was also known as Henry Cooper which must be why his music packs such a punch.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Chris Howell on June 16, 2023, 8:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
Brahms, at least, knew of the competition from the prolific Lieder composer Carl Bohm (no relation, so far as I know, of the splendid conductor of the same name). His publisher Simrock reckoned that the profits from Bohm compensated for his losses on Brahms. One Lied, "Stille ist die Nacht", lingered longer than the rest and is rather nice if hardly great.
Previous Message
I mentioned earlier in this thread that Fats Waller, the great jazzman, studied at the Juillard school and that one of his teachers was Leopold Godowsky. It seems he also studied with the German-born composer Carl Bohm (1844-1920) ultra-prolific composer of salon music bearing such titles as "Pluie de perles", "Petite bijouterie" and "Jeu de libelles" with 397 opus numbers to his credit many of them consisting of multiple separate pieces. The Wikipedia article says that he is regarded as one of the leading German songwriters of the 19th. century....will somebody let Schumann, Mendelssohn and Brahms know about the competition ? Apparently he was also known as Henry Cooper which must be why his music packs such a punch.
Re: Sinatra conducts
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on June 17, 2023, 11:05 am, in reply to "Re: Sinatra conducts"
Thanks for that observation, Chris.
The IMSLP site has numerous examples of Bohm's work available. I found one song with the title (English translation) "Ah me, poor maid, what have I done?" the lyrics of which begin:
"Ah me poor maid what have I done that friends, once kind, my glance should shun?"
The explanation appears in the next strophe, "I only sought the leafy glade to hear the sweet birds sing above, Am I to blame that on my way I met a dark-eyed boy that day?"
A cautionary tale indeed, and I guarantee that Fats Waller didn't have the poor maid in mind when he wrote "Ain't Misbehavin' "
Bohm is one of those characters who proliferated towards the end of the 19th. century who, quite able to compose well-crafted music of larger proportions, owe their reputation largely to reams and reams of small pieces in lighter style; some others are Nikolai von Wilm, Edouard Schutt and Benjamin Godard. Many of these smaller pieces are, in actual fact, quite charming and worth an occasional airing.
Previous Message
Brahms, at least, knew of the competition from the prolific Lieder composer Carl Bohm (no relation, so far as I know, of the splendid conductor of the same name). His publisher Simrock reckoned that the profits from Bohm compensated for his losses on Brahms. One Lied, "Stille ist die Nacht", lingered longer than the rest and is rather nice if hardly great.
Previous Message
I mentioned earlier in this thread that Fats Waller, the great jazzman, studied at the Juillard school and that one of his teachers was Leopold Godowsky. It seems he also studied with the German-born composer Carl Bohm (1844-1920) ultra-prolific composer of salon music bearing such titles as "Pluie de perles", "Petite bijouterie" and "Jeu de libelles" with 397 opus numbers to his credit many of them consisting of multiple separate pieces. The Wikipedia article says that he is regarded as one of the leading German songwriters of the 19th. century....will somebody let Schumann, Mendelssohn and Brahms know about the competition ? Apparently he was also known as Henry Cooper which must be why his music packs such a punch.