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Levelling up
Posted by Mike Hardy on August 22, 2023, 3:24 pm
The Government’s “Levelling up”, if it works is probably a good thing. But what about “Levelling up” musically? Back in my youth (a long time ago) I could listen to a Beethoven symphony and, despite being in no way an expert, I could generally differentiate between a performance by, say, Klemperer, Karajan or Kleiber. I could sometimes identify the orchestra (Czech Philharmonic, Berlin Phil etc) I also remember some, let us say, not very good orchestras and I have no doubt at all that the general standard of orchestral playing has progressed significantly. This is surely good, but they have become faceless and have a uniform sound. Nowadays with Beethoven sets coming thing and fast from every likely and unlikely source this it seems impossible to differentiate let alone identify orchestras and conductors. European orchestras sound like American ones and I heard a Korean orchestra a few days ago that was excellent but anonymous and “international”. The modern breed of jet-setting maestro rarely has his or her “own” orchestra, even so called principal conductors rarely conduct more than half of a season’s concerts. I attend quite a few concerts and almost never hear a conductor who is not fully competent – technically. Unfortunately, in many cases their musical thought seems lagging behind their ability. I could name only a dozen or so conductors who seem to have actually thought behind the notes and come up with a real interpretation, quite a few “famous names” would not be included. Is the blame for this with record companies? Are they desperate for Maestro X and Maestro Y to have as much exposure as possible, usually accompanied by hyperbolic marketing. Is this good due to the hight standard of playing and conducting or a bad thing due o a loss of individuality? Apologies to Ludwin van, just an obvious example! I will stop rambling now.
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Ralph Moore on August 22, 2023, 5:58 pm, in reply to "Levelling up"
I think there are still examples of conductors who have honed a particular sound over time with an orchestra and apply a specific interpretative stance - but I certainly agree that a bland and reliable "international" sound is now more frequently encountered. Perhaps two such conductors who spring to mind are Honeck with the Pittsburg and Currentzis at Perm and with Musica Aeterna; for better (usually) or worse (occasionally) they have produced wholly individual and identifiably original interpretations, so independent artistic endeavour has not yet been entirely subsumed into generalised music-making. I am sure others could make other suggestions.
Previous Message
The Government’s “Levelling up”, if it works is probably a good thing. But what about “Levelling up” musically? Back in my youth (a long time ago) I could listen to a Beethoven symphony and, despite being in no way an expert, I could generally differentiate between a performance by, say, Klemperer, Karajan or Kleiber. I could sometimes identify the orchestra (Czech Philharmonic, Berlin Phil etc) I also remember some, let us say, not very good orchestras and I have no doubt at all that the general standard of orchestral playing has progressed significantly. This is surely good, but they have become faceless and have a uniform sound. Nowadays with Beethoven sets coming thing and fast from every likely and unlikely source this it seems impossible to differentiate let alone identify orchestras and conductors. European orchestras sound like American ones and I heard a Korean orchestra a few days ago that was excellent but anonymous and “international”. The modern breed of jet-setting maestro rarely has his or her “own” orchestra, even so called principal conductors rarely conduct more than half of a season’s concerts. I attend quite a few concerts and almost never hear a conductor who is not fully competent – technically. Unfortunately, in many cases their musical thought seems lagging behind their ability. I could name only a dozen or so conductors who seem to have actually thought behind the notes and come up with a real interpretation, quite a few “famous names” would not be included. Is the blame for this with record companies? Are they desperate for Maestro X and Maestro Y to have as much exposure as possible, usually accompanied by hyperbolic marketing. Is this good due to the hight standard of playing and conducting or a bad thing due o a loss of individuality? Apologies to Ludwin van, just an obvious example! I will stop rambling now.
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on August 22, 2023, 6:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Levelling up"
One thing that occurs to me that seems to set the modern school of conductors apart from those of previous generations is the fact that so many of the "older school" were skilled composers (or, at least, arrangers) as well as being executant musicians. As they occur to me I can name Kletzki, Walter, Dorati, Schuricht, Sargent, Beecham, Wood, Szell, Weingartner, Heger, Bernstein, Previn, Klemperer, Hanson, Goossens, Ruth Gipps, Kubelik, Martinon, deSabata, Clarence Raybould, Svetlanov, Boulez, Stokowski, Barbirolli Anthony Collins and Stanford Robinson and, I feel sure, there are quite a few more which escape me at present. This gave these conductors insights into how a piece of music "Works" which might have escaped those who look at it purely from the standpoint of performance. Even conductors who I don't know as composers like Reiner and Ormandy must have benefitted from their association with some of the leading composers of the twentieth century. How many of today's conductors could compose a substantial orchestral piece? Where are the Strausses, Bartoks and Brittens who they can learn from ?
Another question arising from this thread: With umpteen versions of the Beethoven Symphonies starting with Weingartner and Mengelberg and traversing examples from most of the "Greats" of the last century , do we really need yet another cycle to weigh down our library shelves ?
Previous Message
I think there are still examples of conductors who have honed a particular sound over time with an orchestra and apply a specific interpretative stance - but I certainly agree that a bland and reliable "international" sound is now more frequently encountered. Perhaps two such conductors who spring to mind are Honeck with the Pittsburg and Currentzis at Perm and with Musica Aeterna; for better (usually) or worse (occasionally) they have produced wholly individual and identifiably original interpretations, so independent artistic endeavour has not yet been entirely subsumed into generalised music-making. I am sure others could make other suggestions.
Previous Message
The Government’s “Levelling up”, if it works is probably a good thing. But what about “Levelling up” musically? Back in my youth (a long time ago) I could listen to a Beethoven symphony and, despite being in no way an expert, I could generally differentiate between a performance by, say, Klemperer, Karajan or Kleiber. I could sometimes identify the orchestra (Czech Philharmonic, Berlin Phil etc) I also remember some, let us say, not very good orchestras and I have no doubt at all that the general standard of orchestral playing has progressed significantly. This is surely good, but they have become faceless and have a uniform sound. Nowadays with Beethoven sets coming thing and fast from every likely and unlikely source this it seems impossible to differentiate let alone identify orchestras and conductors. European orchestras sound like American ones and I heard a Korean orchestra a few days ago that was excellent but anonymous and “international”. The modern breed of jet-setting maestro rarely has his or her “own” orchestra, even so called principal conductors rarely conduct more than half of a season’s concerts. I attend quite a few concerts and almost never hear a conductor who is not fully competent – technically. Unfortunately, in many cases their musical thought seems lagging behind their ability. I could name only a dozen or so conductors who seem to have actually thought behind the notes and come up with a real interpretation, quite a few “famous names” would not be included. Is the blame for this with record companies? Are they desperate for Maestro X and Maestro Y to have as much exposure as possible, usually accompanied by hyperbolic marketing. Is this good due to the hight standard of playing and conducting or a bad thing due o a loss of individuality? Apologies to Ludwin van, just an obvious example! I will stop rambling now.
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Stuart Sillitoe on August 23, 2023, 11:08 am, in reply to "Levelling up"
With reference to the opening remark about the governments "Levelling up" idea, it can't be done unless they get off their collective backsides and fund the art's and local authorities properly! Living in the north west, Preston to be exact, we once had a half decent musical scene, the Royal Liverpool, the Halle, the Royal Northern all visited the Guild Hall, this despite it having the perfect acoustics for snooker, we also had a thriving chamber music series! My children were brought up on a diet of the usual classics, not much in the way of modern classics! But still they were exposed to lots of live music! Sadly, as the increased cutbacks to local government budgets started to take effect, the arts was one of the first areas to feel the pinch, the Guild Hall closed, thus depriving this and future generations of children of the opportunity to experience classical music! Add to this the dwindling budgets for music and the arts in schools, I am a school governor so can attest to this, and the future for British musicianship looks bleak, especially outside the big cities where a home orchestra is based! If the government has a real commitment to leveling up, how about cutting funding completely from a few of the London venues and sharing the funding across those places without a permanent orchestra, there is an audience, just a lack of accessable venues!
Previous Message
The Government’s “Levelling up”, if it works is probably a good thing. But what about “Levelling up” musically? Back in my youth (a long time ago) I could listen to a Beethoven symphony and, despite being in no way an expert, I could generally differentiate between a performance by, say, Klemperer, Karajan or Kleiber. I could sometimes identify the orchestra (Czech Philharmonic, Berlin Phil etc) I also remember some, let us say, not very good orchestras and I have no doubt at all that the general standard of orchestral playing has progressed significantly. This is surely good, but they have become faceless and have a uniform sound. Nowadays with Beethoven sets coming thing and fast from every likely and unlikely source this it seems impossible to differentiate let alone identify orchestras and conductors. European orchestras sound like American ones and I heard a Korean orchestra a few days ago that was excellent but anonymous and “international”. The modern breed of jet-setting maestro rarely has his or her “own” orchestra, even so called principal conductors rarely conduct more than half of a season’s concerts. I attend quite a few concerts and almost never hear a conductor who is not fully competent – technically. Unfortunately, in many cases their musical thought seems lagging behind their ability. I could name only a dozen or so conductors who seem to have actually thought behind the notes and come up with a real interpretation, quite a few “famous names” would not be included. Is the blame for this with record companies? Are they desperate for Maestro X and Maestro Y to have as much exposure as possible, usually accompanied by hyperbolic marketing. Is this good due to the hight standard of playing and conducting or a bad thing due o a loss of individuality? Apologies to Ludwin van, just an obvious example! I will stop rambling now.
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Mike Hardy on August 23, 2023, 11:58 am, in reply to "Re: Levelling up"
My apologies to all. I did NOT intend this to be a political discussion, just music related!
Previous Message
With reference to the opening remark about the governments "Levelling up" idea, it can't be done unless they get off their collective backsides and fund the art's and local authorities properly! Living in the north west, Preston to be exact, we once had a half decent musical scene, the Royal Liverpool, the Halle, the Royal Northern all visited the Guild Hall, this despite it having the perfect acoustics for snooker, we also had a thriving chamber music series! My children were brought up on a diet of the usual classics, not much in the way of modern classics! But still they were exposed to lots of live music! Sadly, as the increased cutbacks to local government budgets started to take effect, the arts was one of the first areas to feel the pinch, the Guild Hall closed, thus depriving this and future generations of children of the opportunity to experience classical music! Add to this the dwindling budgets for music and the arts in schools, I am a school governor so can attest to this, and the future for British musicianship looks bleak, especially outside the big cities where a home orchestra is based! If the government has a real commitment to leveling up, how about cutting funding completely from a few of the London venues and sharing the funding across those places without a permanent orchestra, there is an audience, just a lack of accessable venues!
Previous Message
The Government’s “Levelling up”, if it works is probably a good thing. But what about “Levelling up” musically? Back in my youth (a long time ago) I could listen to a Beethoven symphony and, despite being in no way an expert, I could generally differentiate between a performance by, say, Klemperer, Karajan or Kleiber. I could sometimes identify the orchestra (Czech Philharmonic, Berlin Phil etc) I also remember some, let us say, not very good orchestras and I have no doubt at all that the general standard of orchestral playing has progressed significantly. This is surely good, but they have become faceless and have a uniform sound. Nowadays with Beethoven sets coming thing and fast from every likely and unlikely source this it seems impossible to differentiate let alone identify orchestras and conductors. European orchestras sound like American ones and I heard a Korean orchestra a few days ago that was excellent but anonymous and “international”. The modern breed of jet-setting maestro rarely has his or her “own” orchestra, even so called principal conductors rarely conduct more than half of a season’s concerts. I attend quite a few concerts and almost never hear a conductor who is not fully competent – technically. Unfortunately, in many cases their musical thought seems lagging behind their ability. I could name only a dozen or so conductors who seem to have actually thought behind the notes and come up with a real interpretation, quite a few “famous names” would not be included. Is the blame for this with record companies? Are they desperate for Maestro X and Maestro Y to have as much exposure as possible, usually accompanied by hyperbolic marketing. Is this good due to the hight standard of playing and conducting or a bad thing due o a loss of individuality? Apologies to Ludwin van, just an obvious example! I will stop rambling now.
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on August 23, 2023, 1:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Levelling up"
It's difficult in discussing declines (very rarely improvements) in standards (musical and in general) not to touch on politics.
I think there will be many older contributors to MWI who can recall thriving musical "Scenes" (both amateur and professional) in areas where, now, there's next-to-nothing worth speaking of. So much of this is due to political decisions over the years.
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Mike Hardy on August 23, 2023, 2:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Levelling up"
I am a bit confused by Stuart Sillitod's remarks. The gist of my argument was that general standards were IMPROVING whilst at the same time gaining anonymity. Absolutely nothing political, real or intended, in that! Some people politicise anything!
Previous Message
It's difficult in discussing declines (very rarely improvements) in standards (musical and in general) not to touch on politics.
I think there will be many older contributors to MWI who can recall thriving musical "Scenes" (both amateur and professional) in areas where, now, there's next-to-nothing worth speaking of. So much of this is due to political decisions over the years.
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on August 23, 2023, 6:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Levelling up"
It didn't help that you started off your post by referring to a Government initiative which some might think invites comment, Mike.
I'm more puzzled by the fact that you appear to think this move to homogoneity which leads to, in your words a "faceless...uniform sound" can be thought of as an improvement to the musical experience other than in the matter of technical slickness. A few years ago I was given a ticket to a Prom in which a young pianist of Eastern origin played a Chopin Concerto in no different a manner than several thousand other young pianists from that part of the world. Accurate, polished but "faceless" and completely unmemorable. The rest of the concert was pretty routine too.
I'm reminded of the story of a noted piano pedagogue who took a group of his students to a recital by D'Albert who was then in his last years and played fistfuls of wrong notes throughout the programme. Afterwards the students were mocking the performance but the teacher admonished them by saying "I'd rather hear all of his wrong notes than all of your polished playing put together."
And how many of today's orchestras have really "levelled up" to the standards of The Philharmonia, The Berlin Philharmonic, The Vienna Philharmonic , The Philadelphia, New York PO and other great orchestras when Maestros like Karajan, Ormandy, Klemperer and Bernstein were wielding the baton ?
Re: Levelling up
Posted by tuxedo on August 23, 2023, 4:20 pm, in reply to "Levelling up"
Mr Hardy
Certainly don't deny what you and others have said about these conductors of today, but one of the benefits is that companies are now releasing recordings by those admired conductors of the past (Beecham, Klemperer, Szell, Kletzki etc etc) and their orchestras at very reasonable prices, so not all bad. However, I'm afraid what you described is simply a fact of modern public life - the gradual disappearence of talented individuals to be replaced by technically proficient robots.
There is also the matter of design and presentation. Yesterday's review of Entartete Musik by Nick Barnard and the appalling lack of documentation is a case in point. And in today's reviews there is a collection of well-regarded guitar music by Heike Matthiesen who, for reasons known only to herself, happily agreed to display herself on the cover looking more like she was auditioning for Page 3 than a respected musician. But if that is how she sees herself...
As Jeffrey has said, do we really need another cycle of symphonies by X, Y or Z?? Most worthwhile works by various composers have already been recorded superbly by real musicians, and in many cases they are classic recordings with many regarded as being the definitive versions. Something we are thankful to be reminded of occasionally by the eminent Mr Moore here on MW - especially in the matter of opera recordings.
regards
Re: Levelling up
Posted by Jeffrey Lague on August 23, 2023, 5:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Levelling up"
I must thank Tuxedo for alerting me to the new issue of guitar music. I have little interest in the guitar but I will hasten to the shops to have a look at this item; whether or not the cd is in the jewel-case is immaterial to me.
This business of "Personality"in performers has been going on for a long time, one of the earliest instances being when Dussek turned his piano side-on to the audience so that ladies could admire his distinctive profile. Sometimes it descends to ridiculous, even cheap levels (as seems to be the case with Ms. Matthiesen's exhibitionism as noted in the thread). I remember , years ago, when Nigel Kennedy was all the rage a friend of mine said to me that he had no wish to go to a concert to see a soloist who dresses like the man who collects the dustbins every week . Added to that there is film extant of Nigel Kennedy as a very young man talking which shows that the Cockney brogue which he affected later on was just as fake as London-born Stokowski's Eastern European accent. My Cockney accent is as genuine as Barbirolli's or Campoli's , it's the Posh one that's fake.
Previous Message
Mr Hardy
Certainly don't deny what you and others have said about these conductors of today, but one of the benefits is that companies are now releasing recordings by those admired conductors of the past (Beecham, Klemperer, Szell, Kletzki etc etc) and their orchestras at very reasonable prices, so not all bad. However, I'm afraid what you described is simply a fact of modern public life - the gradual disappearence of talented individuals to be replaced by technically proficient robots.
There is also the matter of design and presentation. Yesterday's review of Entartete Musik by Nick Barnard and the appalling lack of documentation is a case in point. And in today's reviews there is a collection of well-regarded guitar music by Heike Matthiesen who, for reasons known only to herself, happily agreed to display herself on the cover looking more like she was auditioning for Page 3 than a respected musician. But if that is how she sees herself...
As Jeffrey has said, do we really need another cycle of symphonies by X, Y or Z?? Most worthwhile works by various composers have already been recorded superbly by real musicians, and in many cases they are classic recordings with many regarded as being the definitive versions. Something we are thankful to be reminded of occasionally by the eminent Mr Moore here on MW - especially in the matter of opera recordings.