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Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
Posted by Ralph Moore on June 4, 2024, 10:01 pm
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Re: Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
Whilst always respecting other people's opinions and, as an aside was full of admiration with TD's review of this disc, on this occasion I am inclined to agree more with you. Litton is a great Mahler conductor and his recordings of the other symphonies he made in Dallas for the Delos label are amongst the unsung glories of the Mahler discography. I am certainly happy to be able to hear the Carpenter completion in a recording that is not likely to be bettered. Of course, this is also just another Mahlerite with a little experience ....
Previous Message
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Re: Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
I think when Tony says that that the Carpenter distorts Mahler's voice he is probably right. Carpenter - like Samale/Mazzuca - over orchestrates, but he also uses music from the early symphonies which other arrangers have not. The Carpenter not only distorts Mahler's voice; it distorts the 10th.
Litton's recording of Carpenter is at least better than that of Harold Farberman who is completely the opposite of "saccharine and sickly". The Farberman recording is pure hell, as many Farberman Mahler recordings are. A middle ground between these two is the Zinman recording. It's just important to bear in mind that if you're listening to the Carpenter version you are a long way from hearing something close to a viable version of the Tenth. For that you might wish to try the Joseph Wheeler one (Robert Olson on Naxos).
Clinton Carpenter's M10
Previous Message
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Re: Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
For those who dare, the Farberman Tenth is on YouTube...I will brave it some time as your description as "pure hell" is intriguing!
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I think when Tony says that that the Carpenter distorts Mahler's voice he is probably right. Carpenter - like Samale/Mazzuca - over orchestrates, but he also uses music from the early symphonies which other arrangers have not. The Carpenter not only distorts Mahler's voice; it distorts the 10th.
Litton's recording of Carpenter is at least better than that of Harold Farberman who is completely the opposite of "saccharine and sickly". The Farberman recording is pure hell, as many Farberman Mahler recordings are. A middle ground between these two is the Zinman recording. It's just important to bear in mind that if you're listening to the Carpenter version you are a long way from hearing something close to a viable version of the Tenth. For that you might wish to try the Joseph Wheeler one (Robert Olson on Naxos).
Clinton Carpenter's M10
Previous Message
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Re: Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
I'm inclined to agree with the late Tony Duggan. Carpenter's version of Mahler 10 is, at least for me, not really a piece of music to enjoy and listen as such. It's more an aural meditation on the symphony it fleshes out, its reception history, the possibilities it tantalizingly dangles before the listener, the incompleteness of the thing, and, by extension, its composer.
The older I get, the more I believe that nobody has yet bested Deryck Cooke's Mahler 10 completion. (His admirable modesty notwithstanding, what he wrought was effectively a completion.) That said, I think Klemperer put it best when he said that any attempts at making the Mahler 10 sketches performable required a "second Mahler".
We have the first movement mostly complete, at least—some of the most beautiful and perfect music anybody ever composed.
Previous Message
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Re: Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
I listened again to the Wheeler version and enjoyed it but found myself increasingly unconvinced as it progressed - especially in its application of brass sonorities in the penultimate movement - but it is such wonderful music that I still thoroughly enjoyed it. Cooke is still obviously the default version and we would be much the worse off without it.
Previous Message
I'm inclined to agree with the late Tony Duggan. Carpenter's version of Mahler 10 is, at least for me, not really a piece of music to enjoy and listen as such. It's more an aural meditation on the symphony it fleshes out, its reception history, the possibilities it tantalizingly dangles before the listener, the incompleteness of the thing, and, by extension, its composer.
The older I get, the more I believe that nobody has yet bested Deryck Cooke's Mahler 10 completion. (His admirable modesty notwithstanding, what he wrought was effectively a completion .) That said, I think Klemperer put it best when he said that any attempts at making the Mahler 10 sketches performable required a "second Mahler".
We have the first movement mostly complete, at least—some of the most beautiful and perfect music anybody ever composed.
Previous Message
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Re: Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
What strikes me now about the M10 in whatever arrangement is how conservative it is for 1910. There is an increasing spareness in the orchestration which started tentatively in M9 and more so in Das Lied. But otherwise no significant stylistic change or terseness is noticeable. It is unusually lyrical for a symphony which I do find refreshing. As for completions it is necessary to remember that the first 3 movements have Mahler's own orchestral scoring to greater or lesser extent. Only the last two movements are in short score only. So we have a pretty good idea of what Mahler was looking to do. I don't see anything that will better the Cooke version at this point 60 years on.
Previous Message
I listened again to the Wheeler version and enjoyed it but found myself increasingly unconvinced as it progressed - especially in its application of brass sonorities in the penultimate movement - but it is such wonderful music that I still thoroughly enjoyed it. Cooke is still obviously the default version and we would be much the worse off without it.
Previous Message
I'm inclined to agree with the late Tony Duggan. Carpenter's version of Mahler 10 is, at least for me, not really a piece of music to enjoy and listen as such. It's more an aural meditation on the symphony it fleshes out, its reception history, the possibilities it tantalizingly dangles before the listener, the incompleteness of the thing, and, by extension, its composer.
The older I get, the more I believe that nobody has yet bested Deryck Cooke's Mahler 10 completion. (His admirable modesty notwithstanding, what he wrought was effectively a completion .) That said, I think Klemperer put it best when he said that any attempts at making the Mahler 10 sketches performable required a "second Mahler".
We have the first movement mostly complete, at least—some of the most beautiful and perfect music anybody ever composed.
Previous Message
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Re: Litton's Mahler 10 in the Carpenter completion
Yes, I agree; in some ways, Mahler was moving towards the "less is more" approach. I am much looking forward to hearing Blomstedt conduct the Mahler 9 in November this year with the Philharmonia; I do hope his health endures for a good while yet - he is a conductorial phenomenon.
Previous Message
Hi Ralph,
What strikes me now about the M10 in whatever arrangement is how conservative it is for 1910. There is an increasing spareness in the orchestration which started tentatively in M9 and more so in Das Lied. But otherwise no significant stylistic change or terseness is noticeable. It is unusually lyrical for a symphony which I do find refreshing. As for completions it is necessary to remember that the first 3 movements have Mahler's own orchestral scoring to greater or lesser extent. Only the last two movements are in short score only. So we have a pretty good idea of what Mahler was looking to do. I don't see anything that will better the Cooke version at this point 60 years on.
Previous Message
I listened again to the Wheeler version and enjoyed it but found myself increasingly unconvinced as it progressed - especially in its application of brass sonorities in the penultimate movement - but it is such wonderful music that I still thoroughly enjoyed it. Cooke is still obviously the default version and we would be much the worse off without it.
Previous Message
I'm inclined to agree with the late Tony Duggan. Carpenter's version of Mahler 10 is, at least for me, not really a piece of music to enjoy and listen as such. It's more an aural meditation on the symphony it fleshes out, its reception history, the possibilities it tantalizingly dangles before the listener, the incompleteness of the thing, and, by extension, its composer.
The older I get, the more I believe that nobody has yet bested Deryck Cooke's Mahler 10 completion. (His admirable modesty notwithstanding, what he wrought was effectively a completion .) That said, I think Klemperer put it best when he said that any attempts at making the Mahler 10 sketches performable required a "second Mahler".
We have the first movement mostly complete, at least—some of the most beautiful and perfect music anybody ever composed.
Previous Message
I was surprised to read in the recent Déjà Review (https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/06/mahler-symphony-no-10-delos-2/) of this how much the late, respected Mahler guru Tony Duggan disliked this recording, in that while I concede that the scoring is very lush and perhaps a degree over-elaborated, I thoroughly enjoy it and am happy to hear it as a supplement or alternative to the more widely played, recorded and celebrated Deryck Cooke version. I certainly do not share his view that "Litton’s conducting of Carpenter's scoring comes over as saccharine and sickly" or that the arrangement "distorts Mahler’s voice". To be fair TD finishes by declaring "But these are the opinions of just one person, one Mahlerite with some experience. I hope that another review of this recording can appear here on Music Web to give another opinion." I would be interested to know if others share his aversion or enjoy it as I do.
Previous Message