[ The MusicWeb Message Board ]

CELEBRATING 53,000 Classical CD reviews on-line (Sept 2016); 21,000 page views each day.
Return to MusicWeb International

Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Ian Peake on July 7, 2024, 1:05 pm For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Nick Barnard on July 7, 2024, 10:38 pm, in reply to "Elgar Dream of Gerontius" A very valid point. But would you stop at a true contralto who pronounced her vowels as Elgar must have heard them with a fruity wobble..... or is that authenticity taken too far? Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Isn Peake on July 8, 2024, 4:37 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" Back in Elgars day the vowels might be not to our liking today but surely if seeking historical accuracy then I suppose they should be sung so. The main point is any singer with a “wobble”would not have been considered for the role as a solid technique was the order of the day…. Wobble or vocal instability is more likely these days. But thank you fir your thoughts Previous Message A very valid point. But would you stop at a true contralto who pronounced her vowels as Elgar must have heard them with a fruity wobble..... or is that authenticity taken too far? Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Ralph Moore on July 8, 2024, 10:08 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" Early recordings of excerpts by Henry Wood and Elgar himself feature true contraltos Clara Butt and Margaret Balfour respectively and certainly neither is a wobbler - although they are indeed "fruity" in the best sense of the word. Subsequent Angels such as Gladys Ripley, Constance Shacklock, Janet Baker and Helen Watts are similarly rich-voiced but I do agree that in more recent years the trend has been to cast inappropriately lighter mezzos without the gravitas or lower register tonal depth of those singers simply because they have, as you say, become so rare. Presumably conservatories have wrong-headedly discouraged the development of those bassoon-tones as "vulgar" or even ""damaging". Of more recent recordings, perhaps singers such as Felicity Palmer comes closest to what Elgar had in mind - although admittedly, as much as I love her voice, I concede that she has quite a pronounced vibrato. Alfreda Hodgson, too, for Gibson was right - a lovely, dark voice. Previous Message Back in Elgars day the vowels might be not to our liking today but surely if seeking historical accuracy then I suppose they should be sung so. The main point is any singer with a “wobble”would not have been considered for the role as a solid technique was the order of the day…. Wobble or vocal instability is more likely these days. But thank you fir your thoughts Previous Message A very valid point. But would you stop at a true contralto who pronounced her vowels as Elgar must have heard them with a fruity wobble..... or is that authenticity taken too far? Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Alex Segal on July 30, 2024, 6:53 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" Does anyone know if there are recordings of John Dowland songs that strive for historical accuracy pertaining to pronunciation? My impression is that the historical accuracy movement does not focus all that much on issues of pronunciation - but I may be wrong about this. Previous Message Back in Elgars day the vowels might be not to our liking today but surely if seeking historical accuracy then I suppose they should be sung so. The main point is any singer with a “wobble”would not have been considered for the role as a solid technique was the order of the day…. Wobble or vocal instability is more likely these days. But thank you fir your thoughts Previous Message A very valid point. But would you stop at a true contralto who pronounced her vowels as Elgar must have heard them with a fruity wobble..... or is that authenticity taken too far? Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Evan Blackmore on July 31, 2024, 3:53 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" Elizabethan Ayres and Duets Sung in Authentic Elizabethan Pronunciation (Hyperion CDA66003) has 7 Dowland items (plus 2 Campion, 1 Danyel, etc.) sung by Glenda Simpson and Paul Hillier with the Camerata of London, recorded in 1980. Two very small reservations: (1) The disc uses E. J. Dobson's reconstructions of Elizabethan pronunciation (which, I think, not all specialists would accept in all details). (2) The performances, though excellent, sound dutiful rather than spontaneous, and hints of modern vowels still peep through in a few places. I too have the impression "that the historical accuracy movement does not focus all that much on issues of pronunciation." The same is even more true of Shakespeare: no recording of any of his plays attempts to reproduce the sonorities that he so meticulously constructed. And sonority does make a difference, at least sometimes (consider, e.g., Martinelli's performance of the Celeste Aida recitative as sung by a tenor with a lisp).

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Ralph Moore on July 31, 2024, 10:37 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" Wasn't that Corelli, Evan, rather than Martinelli? He had to work as hard to try to correct that pronunciation defect as he did the bleat in his vibrato in his early days (hence the unkind nickname "Pecorelli - "Little Sheep"). Previous Message Elizabethan Ayres and Duets Sung in Authentic Elizabethan Pronunciation (Hyperion CDA66003) has 7 Dowland items (plus 2 Campion, 1 Danyel, etc.) sung by Glenda Simpson and Paul Hillier with the Camerata of London, recorded in 1980. Two very small reservations: (1) The disc uses E. J. Dobson's reconstructions of Elizabethan pronunciation (which, I think, not all specialists would accept in all details). (2) The performances, though excellent, sound dutiful rather than spontaneous, and hints of modern vowels still peep through in a few places. I too have the impression "that the historical accuracy movement does not focus all that much on issues of pronunciation." The same is even more true of Shakespeare: no recording of any of his plays attempts to reproduce the sonorities that he so meticulously constructed. And sonority does make a difference, at least sometimes (consider, e.g., Martinelli's performance of the Celeste Aida recitative as sung by a tenor with a lisp).

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Evan Blackmore on July 31, 2024, 1:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" Actually I was thinking of something different, and I did indeed mean Martinelli. It wasn't that he himself tended to lisp. Rather, as a little comedy act in his recitals, he used to sing "Se quel guerrier io fossi! se il mio sogno s'avverasse!" etc. as a tenor with a lisp might sing it. I don't believe he was parodying any particular tenor; I expect he was simply struck by the number of sibilants he had to generate whenever he sang it. It reminds me a bit of Danny Kaye's impersonation of a Russian baritone with hay fever being presented with a bouquet of flowers and then trying to sing Ochi chornye as his final encore.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Ralph Moore on July 31, 2024, 2:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" Ah yes - I see. It was probably Lauri-Volpe who mocked the young Corelli's speech impediment. Previous Message Wasn't that Corelli, Evan, rather than Martinelli? He had to work as hard to try to correct that pronunciation defect as he did the bleat in his vibrato in his early days (hence the unkind nickname "Pecorelli - "Little Sheep"). Previous Message Elizabethan Ayres and Duets Sung in Authentic Elizabethan Pronunciation (Hyperion CDA66003) has 7 Dowland items (plus 2 Campion, 1 Danyel, etc.) sung by Glenda Simpson and Paul Hillier with the Camerata of London, recorded in 1980. Two very small reservations: (1) The disc uses E. J. Dobson's reconstructions of Elizabethan pronunciation (which, I think, not all specialists would accept in all details). (2) The performances, though excellent, sound dutiful rather than spontaneous, and hints of modern vowels still peep through in a few places. I too have the impression "that the historical accuracy movement does not focus all that much on issues of pronunciation." The same is even more true of Shakespeare: no recording of any of his plays attempts to reproduce the sonorities that he so meticulously constructed. And sonority does make a difference, at least sometimes (consider, e.g., Martinelli's performance of the Celeste Aida recitative as sung by a tenor with a lisp).

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Alex Segal on August 8, 2024, 4:44 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" In a YouTube video of a masterclass on Elgar’s song “Where Corals Lie”, the American mezzo Marilyn Horne says to her American student (also a mezzo), “Every time you come to the word ‘corals’, you’ve got to think a little British” - and she rolls the r in the word “British” (8.45). I think that Horne probably has in mind the kind of “posh” English pronunciation that was more common in the past - the kind that I associate with Dame Clara Butt, for whom the song was written. So Horne’s approach may be an instance of a singer adopting something like an historical approach to pronunciation - albeit in a way that is perhaps not all that systematic. I think a rolled r involves something like a wobble. So if people associate the steady-voiced Clara Butt with a rolled r, they may associate her with wobble. Previous Message A very valid point. But would you stop at a true contralto who pronounced her vowels as Elgar must have heard them with a fruity wobble..... or is that authenticity taken too far? Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Ralph Moore on August 8, 2024, 9:32 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" I don't think a slightly trilled r is to be confused with the speed or variation of pitch or oscillation in a vibrato, Alex - but certainly a faster vibrato and that clipped pronunciation were both more frequently encountered in the past, whereas today the slow wobble is much more prevalent and problematic. Some people hear the fast vibrato of the earliest recorded tenors such as Bonci as a kind of bleat - later, Corelli had that problem and cured himself of it, whereas to my ears a modern tenor like Calleja remains afflicted with it - and similarly Conchita Supervia's mezzo is often described as a "rattle". There is certainly an optimum speed and variation but also a certain tolerance within aesthetically determined parameters - and the only singer I know who could alter his vibrato tastefully at will was Lawrence Tibbett; he often speeded it up for dramatic effect. I find certain Bayreuth bass-baritones, current and of the recent past, unlistenable, murdering the role of Wotan, they have such a slow and prominent pulse. Previous Message In a YouTube video of a masterclass on Elgar’s song “Where Corals Lie”, the American mezzo Marilyn Horne says to her American student (also a mezzo), “Every time you come to the word ‘corals’, you’ve got to think a little British” - and she rolls the r in the word “British” (8.45). I think that Horne probably has in mind the kind of “posh” English pronunciation that was more common in the past - the kind that I associate with Dame Clara Butt, for whom the song was written. So Horne’s approach may be an instance of a singer adopting something like an historical approach to pronunciation - albeit in a way that is perhaps not all that systematic. I think a rolled r involves something like a wobble. So if people associate the steady-voiced Clara Butt with a rolled r, they may associate her with wobble. Previous Message A very valid point. But would you stop at a true contralto who pronounced her vowels as Elgar must have heard them with a fruity wobble..... or is that authenticity taken too far? Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Alex Segal on July 30, 2024, 10:50 pm, in reply to "Elgar Dream of Gerontius" I think it is worth remembering that the original The Angel was Marie Brema, a dramatic mezzo soprano who could not be described as a contralto - she was admired for her Brunnhilde. According to Wikipedia, Elgar thought that the tessitura of the part did not suit Brema very well but he praised her performance nevertheless. I think Elgar would have been delighted by Janet Baker’s singing of the role even though she is better classified as a mezzo soprano than a contralto. Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius Posted by Ian Peake on July 31, 2024, 9:31 am, in reply to "Re: Elgar Dream of Gerontius" [quote Thank you for your information on Marie Brema a name not known to me.I looked her up on the internet and apparently she satisfied the likes of G B Shaw well known for his knowledge of singers.It appears she left no recordings. My brief about contralto’s was not personality driven but with all the extravagant attention to so called historical practice,conveniently ignoring one of the most important features,meaning the singers of the the times.Surely as valid an attempt to be included in the effort they were trying to recreate as I comprehended the fixation. That Elgar might have appreciated Dame Janets extraordinary performance is of course pure conjecture.In interview she stated that she did not want to “Vocally travel down”.But of course this is nothing to do with my point. Brema had the first performances but the names of those after her were all contraltos .Mr Ralph Moore has given the names also there are recordings to listen to also conducted by Elgar. Ian Peake] I think it is worth remembering that the original The Angel was Marie Brema, a dramatic mezzo soprano who could not be described as a contralto - she was admired for her Brunnhilde. According to Wikipedia, Elgar thought that the tessitura of the part did not suit Brema very well but he praised her performance nevertheless. I think Elgar would have been delighted by Janet Baker’s singing of the role even though she is better classified as a mezzo soprano than a contralto. Previous Message For all of the effort and attention and gathering appropriate instruments for a recording the one historically appropriate component that is missing…..and what Elgar himself would have heard….is a Contralto to sing the part of The Angel.A light voiced mezzo is just not as effective if the depth and security of a well trained Contralto sings the part.True the breed is very thin on the ground these days but for all of the effort taken with this new recording the missing historical singer makes the whole enterprise incomplete.

« Back to index