CELEBRATING 53,000 Classical CD reviews on-line (Sept 2016); 21,000 page views each day. Return to MusicWeb International
Stanford
Posted by Michael Bullivant on August 17, 2024, 4:19 pm
Prompted by the latest of Christopher Howell’s ‘Stanfordian Thoughts’ (as usual fascinating in its exploration of the byways of Stanford’s career), I had one of my own! Was he not perhaps the most complete musician Britain has ever produced? His worth as a composer is gradually being reassessed through recordings if not live performances and his stature is now surely unarguable – not a giant such as Elgar or Vaughan Williams perhaps, but still a composer of the first rank. His output was prodigious with his opus numbers reaching 194 and there are a good many works in addition including at least three operas, two symphonies and three concertos, but beyond that he was teacher, conductor, performer, administrator – and, if not in the Berlioz class, his memoirs are nonetheless an entertaining read too. A truly remarkable man - and still, so far as live performance is concerned (except perhaps in cathedrals), something of a prophet without honour and all that!
Re: Stanford
Posted by Nick Barnard on August 18, 2024, 8:24 pm, in reply to "Stanford"
Hi Micheal,
I cannot agree with your estimation of Stanford as being "first rank". Undoubtedly he is a vital part of the evolution that was the English Musical Renaissance. But more so as a teacher than through his own compositions. I would say he is a fine 2nd rank composer and a great teacher. His animosity towards Elgar suggests that on some level he realised himself that he was simply not in the same league as the likes of Elgar - but then no other contemporary British composer was!
I completely accept that he was a remarkable polymath and generally very tlaented but sheer quantity of work alone is no measure of enduring quality. At the end of the day he was no revolutionary musically and by that alone he will always remain a valued but minor figure as a composer.
Previous Message
Prompted by the latest of Christopher Howell’s ‘Stanfordian Thoughts’ (as usual fascinating in its exploration of the byways of Stanford’s career), I had one of my own! Was he not perhaps the most complete musician Britain has ever produced? His worth as a composer is gradually being reassessed through recordings if not live performances and his stature is now surely unarguable – not a giant such as Elgar or Vaughan Williams perhaps, but still a composer of the first rank. His output was prodigious with his opus numbers reaching 194 and there are a good many works in addition including at least three operas, two symphonies and three concertos, but beyond that he was teacher, conductor, performer, administrator – and, if not in the Berlioz class, his memoirs are nonetheless an entertaining read too. A truly remarkable man - and still, so far as live performance is concerned (except perhaps in cathedrals), something of a prophet without honour and all that!
Re: Stanford
Posted by Michael Bullivant on August 19, 2024, 1:46 pm, in reply to "Stanford"
Thanks, Nick, though, as you’d expect, I don’t entirely agree! That Stanford was not in the same league as Elgar is unarguable and I made that point myself; perhaps ‘of the first rank’ was an ill-chosen phrase and he falls within Richard Strauss’s self-proclaimed category: ‘I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer’! I agree that quantity of works is no measure of quality, indeed suggests that some will be of lesser quality, but there are many fine works and I’d argue that he was much more than a ‘minor figure’.
As for his animosity towards Elgar, that was surely very much a two-way thing. Stanford, as the senior composer, was very supportive of Elgar, conducting his music and using his influence to get him an honorary doctorate at Cambridge as well as membership of the Atheneum. Things went awry when Elgar was appointed Peyton Professor of Music at Birmingham: Stanford wrote a letter (which doesn’t seem to have survived) which upset the unusually sensitive Elgar and he responded with remarks in his inaugural lecture that deeply (and understandably) wounded Stanford. Both appear to have been difficult men and Elgar at least as much blame for the falling-out. Perhaps Christopher Howell might have some ‘Thoughts’ on the issue!
Re: Stanford
Posted by Nick Barnard on August 19, 2024, 9:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Stanford"
I have to say I enjoyed the recent Lyrita disc of the Te Deum and the Elegiac Ode very much. Especially the Ode which struck me as more original and individual than some of this works. The great thing is that so much is now available in good recordings for us to make our own minds up about - and that must always be a cause for celebration.
Previous Message
Thanks, Nick, though, as you’d expect, I don’t entirely agree! That Stanford was not in the same league as Elgar is unarguable and I made that point myself; perhaps ‘of the first rank’ was an ill-chosen phrase and he falls within Richard Strauss’s self-proclaimed category: ‘I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer’! I agree that quantity of works is no measure of quality, indeed suggests that some will be of lesser quality, but there are many fine works and I’d argue that he was much more than a ‘minor figure’.
As for his animosity towards Elgar, that was surely very much a two-way thing. Stanford, as the senior composer, was very supportive of Elgar, conducting his music and using his influence to get him an honorary doctorate at Cambridge as well as membership of the Atheneum. Things went awry when Elgar was appointed Peyton Professor of Music at Birmingham: Stanford wrote a letter (which doesn’t seem to have survived) which upset the unusually sensitive Elgar and he responded with remarks in his inaugural lecture that deeply (and understandably) wounded Stanford. Both appear to have been difficult men and Elgar at least as much blame for the falling-out. Perhaps Christopher Howell might have some ‘Thoughts’ on the issue!
Re: Stanford
Posted by Chris Howell on August 20, 2024, 7:42 am, in reply to "Stanford"
Perhaps the problem lies in the idea that composers can be ranked like tennis players, leading us to zany lists by Classic FM and the like that would rank Florence Price above these and most others. A very few composers, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, seem universally accepted as of the first rank. Looked at this way, neither Stanford nor Elgar was in the first rank, so in order to differentiate between them (and the likes of Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov and numerous others) we need to invent a second rank, a third rank, a fourth rank, with maybe a second plus, a first minus, all very amusing to work out and maybe for some a more entertaining pastime than listening to the music. And then, fist/second rank in what? If we allow that Elgar wrote better symphonies than Stanford, what about partsongs or motets? Can you find a partsong by Elgar that stops time like Stanford's Blue Bird or The Haven, or a motet like Justorum Animae? This brings us to another form of ranking, one that assumes a symphony to be of itself a higher form of endeavour than a partsong or a motet. I'm not sure this is so. Nor is it only a matter of small forms versus larger ones. Judge Stanford on his string quartets and you find a higher-ranking (here we go again) master than with the symphonies. Another issue is transportability. Try as people will, Elgar has limited appeal even in Nordic countries and virtually none in Latin ones. And you cannot say, as you once could, that this is because they haven't heard the music. As for Stanford, they haven't had much chance recently. In his own day, his music travelled more readily than Elgar's, but times and conditions have changed, I'm not saying this could be repeated today
Previous Message
Prompted by the latest of Christopher Howell’s ‘Stanfordian Thoughts’ (as usual fascinating in its exploration of the byways of Stanford’s career), I had one of my own! Was he not perhaps the most complete musician Britain has ever produced? His worth as a composer is gradually being reassessed through recordings if not live performances and his stature is now surely unarguable – not a giant such as Elgar or Vaughan Williams perhaps, but still a composer of the first rank. His output was prodigious with his opus numbers reaching 194 and there are a good many works in addition including at least three operas, two symphonies and three concertos, but beyond that he was teacher, conductor, performer, administrator – and, if not in the Berlioz class, his memoirs are nonetheless an entertaining read too. A truly remarkable man - and still, so far as live performance is concerned (except perhaps in cathedrals), something of a prophet without honour and all that!
Re: Stanford
Posted by Chris Howell on August 20, 2024, 12:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Stanford"
PS Michael wonders if I have thoughts about the sour relations between Stanford and Elgar. Thoughts yes, conclusions as yet no. In everything I have read, the writer seems to take one side or the other and blame it all on the other party. Apart from a few vague remarks about "incompatible personalities". I remember my much-valued piano teacher Alexander Kelly, piano professor at the RAM, telling me how once he met Herbert Howells at the bus stop (they were fairly close neighbours). Howells apparently had a great line in dramatic exits. After they had chatted for a few minutes about mundane matters, Howells' bus came and he stood on the back platform (no folding doors in those days) declaiming as the bus left "One day I whall tell you the TRUE story about the rift between Stanford and Elgar". He never did and the secret was swallowed up by the no. 88 bus
Previous Message
Perhaps the problem lies in the idea that composers can be ranked like tennis players, leading us to zany lists by Classic FM and the like that would rank Florence Price above these and most others. A very few composers, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, seem universally accepted as of the first rank. Looked at this way, neither Stanford nor Elgar was in the first rank, so in order to differentiate between them (and the likes of Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov and numerous others) we need to invent a second rank, a third rank, a fourth rank, with maybe a second plus, a first minus, all very amusing to work out and maybe for some a more entertaining pastime than listening to the music. And then, fist/second rank in what? If we allow that Elgar wrote better symphonies than Stanford, what about partsongs or motets? Can you find a partsong by Elgar that stops time like Stanford's Blue Bird or The Haven, or a motet like Justorum Animae? This brings us to another form of ranking, one that assumes a symphony to be of itself a higher form of endeavour than a partsong or a motet. I'm not sure this is so. Nor is it only a matter of small forms versus larger ones. Judge Stanford on his string quartets and you find a higher-ranking (here we go again) master than with the symphonies. Another issue is transportability. Try as people will, Elgar has limited appeal even in Nordic countries and virtually none in Latin ones. And you cannot say, as you once could, that this is because they haven't heard the music. As for Stanford, they haven't had much chance recently. In his own day, his music travelled more readily than Elgar's, but times and conditions have changed, I'm not saying this could be repeated today
Previous Message
Prompted by the latest of Christopher Howell’s ‘Stanfordian Thoughts’ (as usual fascinating in its exploration of the byways of Stanford’s career), I had one of my own! Was he not perhaps the most complete musician Britain has ever produced? His worth as a composer is gradually being reassessed through recordings if not live performances and his stature is now surely unarguable – not a giant such as Elgar or Vaughan Williams perhaps, but still a composer of the first rank. His output was prodigious with his opus numbers reaching 194 and there are a good many works in addition including at least three operas, two symphonies and three concertos, but beyond that he was teacher, conductor, performer, administrator – and, if not in the Berlioz class, his memoirs are nonetheless an entertaining read too. A truly remarkable man - and still, so far as live performance is concerned (except perhaps in cathedrals), something of a prophet without honour and all that!