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Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Chris Salocks on August 6, 2025, 7:01 pm I'm a fan of Ralph Moore's reviews, and I was interested to see his interesting recent discussion of the phenomenal Yunchan Lim performance of the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto. My friend, Jon Nakamatsu, was there at the 2022 Cliburn Competition when Lim won the gold, although Nakamatsu was an online commentator at that time, rather than a judge as he was at the most recent "Cliburn 2025" a few months ago. He told me that, in his opinion, the 2023 Competition's winners consisted of Yunchan Lim, and then a BIG gap, and then the rest of the competitors. That's how good Lim was. I'm sorry however that Decca decided to issue the actual competition performance of the Rachmaninoff, rather than investing in a studio production with another conductor, because Marin Alsop's contribution to this performance is remarkably anodyne IMHO. OTOH, I'm glad that Ralph (may I call him Ralph, instead of Mr. Moore?) picked the Horowitz/Ormandy and Janis/Dorati recordings as comparisons, especially the latter, which IMHO is one of the most brilliant recordings the work has ever received. But I was surprised to see the statement in the review, "Janis. . . rattles through the concerto five or six minutes faster than either [Lim or Horowitz]". That difference in timing is accounted for by the fact that Janis takes cuts in the work (just as he did in his earlier recording with Munch). I don't want to lengthen this post too much by quoting chapter and verse here, but I'd be happy to post a follow-up if folks are interested. In any case, taking cuts in this Concerto was much more common back in the 50's and 60's, and it's a comparatively recent phenomenon of the last few decades that almost every performance you now hear of the work is uncut. Indeed, the Horowitz recordings provide us with a panorama of the "performance practice" showing the extent to which cuts were phased out over the decades of the Concerto's performances: his early performance Coates was very heavily cut, while his later performance with Reiner was also cut (but not as much - about the same as the Janis performances), and his 70's performance with Ormandy is uncut (IIRC - I haven't heard it in awhile). In any case, thanks to Ralph for the review and for his spelling of Rachmaninoff's name! After all, that was the way the composer spelled it himself!

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Ralph Moore on August 6, 2025, 7:27 pm, in reply to "Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Many thanks, Chris, for the comments, kind words and the correction regarding the cuts in Janis' recording, of which I was unaware - and I will amend my review accordingly - although Janis' delivery is still very fleet and airy, no? Maybe Alsop's contribution is one of the factors behind why I find there to be a certain lack of "magic" in the recording of Lim's performance. Previous Message I'm a fan of Ralph Moore's reviews, and I was interested to see his interesting recent discussion of the phenomenal Yunchan Lim performance of the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto. My friend, Jon Nakamatsu, was there at the 2022 Cliburn Competition when Lim won the gold, although Nakamatsu was an online commentator at that time, rather than a judge as he was at the most recent "Cliburn 2025" a few months ago. He told me that, in his opinion, the 2023 Competition's winners consisted of Yunchan Lim, and then a BIG gap, and then the rest of the competitors. That's how good Lim was. I'm sorry however that Decca decided to issue the actual competition performance of the Rachmaninoff, rather than investing in a studio production with another conductor, because Marin Alsop's contribution to this performance is remarkably anodyne IMHO. OTOH, I'm glad that Ralph (may I call him Ralph, instead of Mr. Moore?) picked the Horowitz/Ormandy and Janis/Dorati recordings as comparisons, especially the latter, which IMHO is one of the most brilliant recordings the work has ever received. But I was surprised to see the statement in the review, "Janis. . . rattles through the concerto five or six minutes faster than either [Lim or Horowitz]". That difference in timing is accounted for by the fact that Janis takes cuts in the work (just as he did in his earlier recording with Munch). I don't want to lengthen this post too much by quoting chapter and verse here, but I'd be happy to post a follow-up if folks are interested. In any case, taking cuts in this Concerto was much more common back in the 50's and 60's, and it's a comparatively recent phenomenon of the last few decades that almost every performance you now hear of the work is uncut. Indeed, the Horowitz recordings provide us with a panorama of the "performance practice" showing the extent to which cuts were phased out over the decades of the Concerto's performances: his early performance Coates was very heavily cut, while his later performance with Reiner was also cut (but not as much - about the same as the Janis performances), and his 70's performance with Ormandy is uncut (IIRC - I haven't heard it in awhile). In any case, thanks to Ralph for the review and for his spelling of Rachmaninoff's name! After all, that was the way the composer spelled it himself!

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Marc Bridle on August 7, 2025, 10:39 am, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Horowitz makes a single cut in his Ormandy recording - in the first movement before RN 19, bars 9 and 10 (common to all his recordings). Apart from that, the Horowitz is uncut. Janis makes this cut, too - as he does one in the second movement and the standard cut after the Piu Mosso in the final movement. The Janis is just a very fleet performance in my view; I don't share your enthusiasm for it. All three pianists use the shorter cadenza in the first movement, too - though I have heard Lim play the longer one in other performances of the 3rd. My guess is Lim will reserve a studio recording of the 3rd as part of a complete cycle of the concerti. He already plays the 2nd and 4th (just heard at the Proms) so it probably makes sense to put them down as a complete set. Previous Message Many thanks, Chris, for the comments, kind words and the correction regarding the cuts in Janis' recording, of which I was unaware - and I will amend my review accordingly - although Janis' delivery is still very fleet and airy, no? Maybe Alsop's contribution is one of the factors behind why I find there to be a certain lack of "magic" in the recording of Lim's performance. Previous Message I'm a fan of Ralph Moore's reviews, and I was interested to see his interesting recent discussion of the phenomenal Yunchan Lim performance of the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto. My friend, Jon Nakamatsu, was there at the 2022 Cliburn Competition when Lim won the gold, although Nakamatsu was an online commentator at that time, rather than a judge as he was at the most recent "Cliburn 2025" a few months ago. He told me that, in his opinion, the 2023 Competition's winners consisted of Yunchan Lim, and then a BIG gap, and then the rest of the competitors. That's how good Lim was. I'm sorry however that Decca decided to issue the actual competition performance of the Rachmaninoff, rather than investing in a studio production with another conductor, because Marin Alsop's contribution to this performance is remarkably anodyne IMHO. OTOH, I'm glad that Ralph (may I call him Ralph, instead of Mr. Moore?) picked the Horowitz/Ormandy and Janis/Dorati recordings as comparisons, especially the latter, which IMHO is one of the most brilliant recordings the work has ever received. But I was surprised to see the statement in the review, "Janis. . . rattles through the concerto five or six minutes faster than either [Lim or Horowitz]". That difference in timing is accounted for by the fact that Janis takes cuts in the work (just as he did in his earlier recording with Munch). I don't want to lengthen this post too much by quoting chapter and verse here, but I'd be happy to post a follow-up if folks are interested. In any case, taking cuts in this Concerto was much more common back in the 50's and 60's, and it's a comparatively recent phenomenon of the last few decades that almost every performance you now hear of the work is uncut. Indeed, the Horowitz recordings provide us with a panorama of the "performance practice" showing the extent to which cuts were phased out over the decades of the Concerto's performances: his early performance Coates was very heavily cut, while his later performance with Reiner was also cut (but not as much - about the same as the Janis performances), and his 70's performance with Ormandy is uncut (IIRC - I haven't heard it in awhile). In any case, thanks to Ralph for the review and for his spelling of Rachmaninoff's name! After all, that was the way the composer spelled it himself!

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Chris Salocks on August 7, 2025, 6:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Thanks, Mark - I'd forgotten about Horowitz's cut of that little 2-measure repetition in the cadenza of the first movement. I must say though that I do not share your dismissal of the Janis performance as "just a very fleet performance". To me, it's considerably more than that, especially with regard to the cultivation of a truly sophisticated tonal balance throughout the work, which not only makes the melodies sing as in few other performances, but also cuts through the often thick textures of Rachmaninoff's writing in this work in an almost miraculous way. Of course, it's too bad about the cuts in the Janis performances (which perhaps contribute to your impression of mere fleetness?). Well, as they say, de gustibus and all that. BTW, I also prefer the shorter cadenza in the first movement. Not only is it the one Rachmaninoff used himself in his own recording, but the longer cadenza has such thick textures that the music's progress gets bogged down a bit, at least as I hear it - not to mention that, in its "Allegro molto" section, this longer cadenza shares the kind of writing one hears in the cadenza of the First Concerto - as if Rachmaninoff is repeating that same kind of musical gesture a bit too closely in the Third. Give me the shorter, simpler, less thick cadenza in the Third every time! ;-) And yes, I hope you're correct about the likelihood of a possible Lim recording of all the Rachmaninoff works for piano and orchestra, with a more dynamic conductor on the podium! Previous Message Horowitz makes a single cut in his Ormandy recording - in the first movement before RN 19, bars 9 and 10 (common to all his recordings). Apart from that, the Horowitz is uncut. Janis makes this cut, too - as he does one in the second movement and the standard cut after the Piu Mosso in the final movement. The Janis is just a very fleet performance in my view; I don't share your enthusiasm for it. All three pianists use the shorter cadenza in the first movement, too - though I have heard Lim play the longer one in other performances of the 3rd. My guess is Lim will reserve a studio recording of the 3rd as part of a complete cycle of the concerti. He already plays the 2nd and 4th (just heard at the Proms) so it probably makes sense to put them down as a complete set.

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Steve Luciani on August 9, 2025, 3:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" For whatever it's worth, Rachmaninoff was said to be an admirer of the 1930 Horowitz/Coates recording. I just listened to it and to my ears, it's less frenetic and more lyrical than any of the above. If you're not familiar with it, there's a pretty good restoration available on YouTube. Link: Horowitz/Coates/Rachmaninoff

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Chris Salocks on August 10, 2025, 9:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Hi, Steve, It's been decades since I listened to the Horowitz/Coates recording - I should try that YouTube restoration to which you refer! OTOH, there are a couple of aspects of that recording which are problematical to me, which won't be affected by how good the latest restoration is: one is that Horowitz takes even more cuts than Janis (or Horowitz himself in the 1950's) did; and the other is that, owing to the absence of editing, one hears a fair number of mistakes in the solo part. Of course, if those mistakes didn't bother Rachmaninoff, then they shouldn't bother me - but they do. I can't help it. OTOH, I will say that there is one pre-WW2 Horowitz recording which I love, despite the fact that a bit of the performance is missing. And that's the Brahms First Concerto with Bruno Walter and the Concertgebouw Orchestra. Even though the sound is awful, the performance is absolutely terrific! And this performance also originated from the era before Walter started "melting" when he came to something beautiful! ;-) Previous Message For whatever it's worth, Rachmaninoff was said to be an admirer of the 1930 Horowitz/Coates recording. I just listened to it and to my ears, it's less frenetic and more lyrical than any of the above. If you're not familiar with it, there's a pretty good restoration available on YouTube.

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Steve Luciani on August 11, 2025, 1:42 am, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Horowitz told David Dubal in an interview they only had an hour and a half to record that! Still pretty remarkable, though, considering the time restraint, IMO. It's definitely the most lyrical of the three recordings of his I've heard, at least to my ears. Previous Message Hi, Steve, It's been decades since I listened to the Horowitz/Coates recording - I should try that YouTube restoration to which you refer! OTOH, there are a couple of aspects of that recording which are problematical to me, which won't be affected by how good the latest restoration is: one is that Horowitz takes even more cuts than Janis (or Horowitz himself in the 1950's) did; and the other is that, owing to the absence of editing, one hears a fair number of mistakes in the solo part. Of course, if those mistakes didn't bother Rachmaninoff, then they shouldn't bother me - but they do. I can't help it. OTOH, I will say that there is one pre-WW2 Horowitz recording which I love, despite the fact that a bit of the performance is missing. And that's the Brahms First Concerto with Bruno Walter and the Concertgebouw Orchestra. Even though the sound is awful, the performance is absolutely terrific! And this performance also originated from the era before Walter started "melting" when he came to something beautiful! ;-) Previous Message For whatever it's worth, Rachmaninoff was said to be an admirer of the 1930 Horowitz/Coates recording. I just listened to it and to my ears, it's less frenetic and more lyrical than any of the above. If you're not familiar with it, there's a pretty good restoration available on YouTube.

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Marc Bridle on August 12, 2025, 2:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" There is, by the way, another Horowitz/Ormandy live recording from 30 April 1978, with the NYPO (incorrectly labelled with the PO) on an American pirate label (WME) from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Odd place to do a performance perhaps - but it is listed in the Horowitz database. And there is, of course, an incomplete one with Rodzinski/NYPO from 1943. Talk about fireworks. That can be heard on YouTube. Previous Message Thanks, Mark - I'd forgotten about Horowitz's cut of that little 2-measure repetition in the cadenza of the first movement. I must say though that I do not share your dismissal of the Janis performance as "just a very fleet performance". To me, it's considerably more than that, especially with regard to the cultivation of a truly sophisticated tonal balance throughout the work, which not only makes the melodies sing as in few other performances, but also cuts through the often thick textures of Rachmaninoff's writing in this work in an almost miraculous way. Of course, it's too bad about the cuts in the Janis performances (which perhaps contribute to your impression of mere fleetness?). Well, as they say, de gustibus and all that. BTW, I also prefer the shorter cadenza in the first movement. Not only is it the one Rachmaninoff used himself in his own recording, but the longer cadenza has such thick textures that the music's progress gets bogged down a bit, at least as I hear it - not to mention that, in its "Allegro molto" section, this longer cadenza shares the kind of writing one hears in the cadenza of the First Concerto - as if Rachmaninoff is repeating that same kind of musical gesture a bit too closely in the Third. Give me the shorter, simpler, less thick cadenza in the Third every time! ;-) And yes, I hope you're correct about the likelihood of a possible Lim recording of all the Rachmaninoff works for piano and orchestra, with a more dynamic conductor on the podium! Previous Message Horowitz makes a single cut in his Ormandy recording - in the first movement before RN 19, bars 9 and 10 (common to all his recordings). Apart from that, the Horowitz is uncut. Janis makes this cut, too - as he does one in the second movement and the standard cut after the Piu Mosso in the final movement. The Janis is just a very fleet performance in my view; I don't share your enthusiasm for it. All three pianists use the shorter cadenza in the first movement, too - though I have heard Lim play the longer one in other performances of the 3rd. My guess is Lim will reserve a studio recording of the 3rd as part of a complete cycle of the concerti. He already plays the 2nd and 4th (just heard at the Proms) so it probably makes sense to put them down as a complete set.

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Steve Luciani on August 12, 2025, 2:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Previous Message There is, by the way, another Horowitz/Ormandy live recording from 30 April 1978, with the NYPO (incorrectly labelled with the PO) on an American pirate label (WME) from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Odd place to do a performance perhaps - but it is listed in the Horowitz database. And there is, of course, an incomplete one with Rodzinski/NYPO from 1943. Talk about fireworks. That can be heard on YouTube. Previous Message Thanks, Mark - I'd forgotten about Horowitz's cut of that little 2-measure repetition in the cadenza of the first movement. I must say though that I do not share your dismissal of the Janis performance as "just a very fleet performance". To me, it's considerably more than that, especially with regard to the cultivation of a truly sophisticated tonal balance throughout the work, which not only makes the melodies sing as in few other performances, but also cuts through the often thick textures of Rachmaninoff's writing in this work in an almost miraculous way. Of course, it's too bad about the cuts in the Janis performances (which perhaps contribute to your impression of mere fleetness?). Well, as they say, de gustibus and all that. BTW, I also prefer the shorter cadenza in the first movement. Not only is it the one Rachmaninoff used himself in his own recording, but the longer cadenza has such thick textures that the music's progress gets bogged down a bit, at least as I hear it - not to mention that, in its "Allegro molto" section, this longer cadenza shares the kind of writing one hears in the cadenza of the First Concerto - as if Rachmaninoff is repeating that same kind of musical gesture a bit too closely in the Third. Give me the shorter, simpler, less thick cadenza in the Third every time! ;-) And yes, I hope you're correct about the likelihood of a possible Lim recording of all the Rachmaninoff works for piano and orchestra, with a more dynamic conductor on the podium! Previous Message Horowitz makes a single cut in his Ormandy recording - in the first movement before RN 19, bars 9 and 10 (common to all his recordings). Apart from that, the Horowitz is uncut. Janis makes this cut, too - as he does one in the second movement and the standard cut after the Piu Mosso in the final movement. The Janis is just a very fleet performance in my view; I don't share your enthusiasm for it. All three pianists use the shorter cadenza in the first movement, too - though I have heard Lim play the longer one in other performances of the 3rd. My guess is Lim will reserve a studio recording of the 3rd as part of a complete cycle of the concerti. He already plays the 2nd and 4th (just heard at the Proms) so it probably makes sense to put them down as a complete set.

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Steve Luciani on August 12, 2025, 2:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" There's also an exciting 1953 Kapell aircheck on YouTube as well. He was supposed to record it with Reiner in 1954. I can only imagine how good that one might have been. Link: Kapell/Heinze/Rachmaninoff 3d

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Richard Woo on August 8, 2025, 10:28 pm, in reply to "Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Previous Message I'm sorry however that Decca decided to issue the actual competition performance of the Rachmaninoff, rather than investing in a studio production with another conductor I think it was a very deliberate decision, because the competition performance has the most marketing value for Decca — "Here is the Cliburn performance that made Yunchan Lim an instant sensation!" BTW, Does any major orchestra even make studio recordings (not in concert) any more? The cost has become prohibitive.

Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third Posted by Ralph Moore on August 8, 2025, 11:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Janis, Horowitz and Lim in the Rachmaninoff Third" Edited by board administrator August 9, 2025, 10:34 am Studio recordings of major symphonic, orchestral and operatic works are indeed now much rarer than in their heyday some decades back; one has only to look at what has been reviewed on MusicWeb over the last few months to see how few such releases there have been, especially as most major orchestras now have their own "live" label. However, there are still some being made, even if they are comparative rarities; to take a few random examples, both Rouvali and Mäkelä have recorded complete sets of Sibelius symphonies, Bychkov has been doing a complete Mahler cycle with the Czech Philharmonic, Decca recorded Christian Li's Tchaikovsky and Opera Rara released a studio Simon Boccanegra - but then, the catalogue is now bursting with highly recommendable studio accounts of core repertoire and labels are increasingly recording niche music. Previous Message Previous Message I'm sorry however that Decca decided to issue the actual competition performance of the Rachmaninoff, rather than investing in a studio production with another conductor I think it was a very deliberate decision, because the competition performance has the most marketing value for Decca — "Here is the Cliburn performance that made Yunchan Lim an instant sensation!" BTW, Does any major orchestra even make studio recordings (not in concert) any more? The cost has become prohibitive.

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