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CD-Rs Posted by Barry Cronin on June 3, 2024, 10:40 am Hi. Does anyone - more knowledgeable than me - want to discuss CD-Rs, in particular with reference to Hyperion? That acronym is popping up all over their website recently. Their new releases are not CD-Rs - cf. the new Takacs Qt. disc of Schubert Quartets - but follow the Takacs link and see how many of their 'old' discs are now CD-R only, to give one example. Admittedly, Hyperion are upfront with which of their titles are CD-R and which are not, but if it's cheaper for the company to issue titles in this way (and it must be cheaper or why else do it?), at the very least pass a little of the saving on to the customer?! Perhaps one should just accept Hyperion isn't what it used to be? No longer independent, even though they still proclaim themselves as such on their site, prices increased, and now CD-Rs flooding in. First-world problems, I know, but any thoughts will be welcome.

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Len Mullenger on June 3, 2024, 12:54 pm, in reply to "CD-Rs" CD-Rs should sound exactly the same as the parent CD so I do not see this as a problem. What is a problem (and this is not just Hyperion) is that for many discs there is not a CD option, just downloads. Len Previous Message Hi. Does anyone - more knowledgeable than me - want to discuss CD-Rs, in particular with reference to Hyperion? That acronym is popping up all over their website recently. Their new releases are not CD-Rs - cf. the new Takacs Qt. disc of Schubert Quartets - but follow the Takacs link and see how many of their 'old' discs are now CD-R only, to give one example. Admittedly, Hyperion are upfront with which of their titles are CD-R and which are not, but if it's cheaper for the company to issue titles in this way (and it must be cheaper or why else do it?), at the very least pass a little of the saving on to the customer?! Perhaps one should just accept Hyperion isn't what it used to be? No longer independent, even though they still proclaim themselves as such on their site, prices increased, and now CD-Rs flooding in. First-world problems, I know, but any thoughts will be welcome.

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Ralph Moore on June 3, 2024, 3:57 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" It has been argued that CD-R copies can even be better if the original is in poor condition - and modern, good quality CD-Rs are meant to be copied at a high speed to reduce the possibility of error. I am sure Hyperion will be using the best CD-Rs and equipment at the right speed. I cannot say I have ever noticed any difference between the original and a copy, and a digital process should reproduce exactly unless you are using poor quality equipment, although of course one's hearing deteriorates as one advances in age. (However, I had mine tested recently and was relieved to discover that it is that of a person considerably younger than my actual years, so I am lucky.) Now I'll wait for the audiophiles to jump in and tell Len and me we are talking rot... Previous Message CD-Rs should sound exactly the same as the parent CD so I do not see this as a problem. What is a problem (and this is not just Hyperion) is that for many discs there is not a CD option, just downloads. Len Previous Message Hi. Does anyone - more knowledgeable than me - want to discuss CD-Rs, in particular with reference to Hyperion? That acronym is popping up all over their website recently. Their new releases are not CD-Rs - cf. the new Takacs Qt. disc of Schubert Quartets - but follow the Takacs link and see how many of their 'old' discs are now CD-R only, to give one example. Admittedly, Hyperion are upfront with which of their titles are CD-R and which are not, but if it's cheaper for the company to issue titles in this way (and it must be cheaper or why else do it?), at the very least pass a little of the saving on to the customer?! Perhaps one should just accept Hyperion isn't what it used to be? No longer independent, even though they still proclaim themselves as such on their site, prices increased, and now CD-Rs flooding in. First-world problems, I know, but any thoughts will be welcome.

Re: CD-Rs Posted by tuxedo on June 3, 2024, 3:39 pm, in reply to "CD-Rs" Mr Cronin Not sure I grasp your objection - using your example, if the older Takacs discs were only available as downloads then you would have a point. And if Hyperion were to offer both a CD (CD-R) and a cheaper download, well - you wouldn't. I think you ought to contact Hyperion re the gist of your penultimate paragraph. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Barry Cronin on June 3, 2024, 4:20 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" I have heard (rumours?) that CD-Rs are of lesser quality than factory-pressed CDs, and have a potentially shorter shelf-life? Likewise, if CD-Rs are no different to CDs, why differentiate at all - just sell them as CDs? Previous Message Mr Cronin Not sure I grasp your objection - using your example, if the older Takacs discs were only available as downloads then you would have a point. And if Hyperion were to offer both a CD (CD-R) and a cheaper download, well - you wouldn't. I think you ought to contact Hyperion re the gist of your penultimate paragraph. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Ralph Moore on June 3, 2024, 6:48 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" Yes; I believe that is a possibility but it depends on the quality of the CD-R - something to do with the coating used or the depth of their reflective layer - and as with old CDs which have "bronzed" that would not become apparent for many years. At present, there is no reliable data but many people believe CD-R is inherently less stable and has a shorter shelf-life than pressed CDs. Previous Message I have heard (rumours?) that CD-Rs are of lesser quality than factory-pressed CDs, and have a potentially shorter shelf-life? Likewise, if CD-Rs are no different to CDs, why differentiate at all - just sell them as CDs? Previous Message Mr Cronin Not sure I grasp your objection - using your example, if the older Takacs discs were only available as downloads then you would have a point. And if Hyperion were to offer both a CD (CD-R) and a cheaper download, well - you wouldn't. I think you ought to contact Hyperion re the gist of your penultimate paragraph. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by tuxedo on June 4, 2024, 3:08 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" Hmmm... Mr Cronin's statements: "factory-pressed" CD's & "if CD-Rs are no different to CDs, why differentiate... just sell them as CDs?" The above comments lead me to ask if there is such a thing as a "factory-pressed CD"? Maybe all retail CD's are in fact CD-R's anyway? Still think Mr Cronin ought to contact Hyperion and get an official response/explanation. In the meantime, I can't help but be reminded of Klemperer's outburst when told of the convenience of using tape edits above the expense of doing yet another take... "ein Schwindel!!" regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Barry Cronin on June 4, 2024, 5:46 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" Hi. From Hyperion's website [Cecil Coles: Behind the Lines]: ''Please note that physical copies of this album purchased from our website come as CD-R copies rather than commercially pressed CDs. Booklets and other packaging are as normal.'' There can be no reason for them to issue 'copies', as opposed to re-pressing the original, other than to save money, so I do wonder if the consumer couldn't be let in on the saving, albeit I accept they are a business and need to make money themselves in the first instance. Bearing in mind, as I mentioned earlier, Hyperion being taken over, and their retail prices increasing, the CD-R thing strikes me as a sign of the times, which is sad when it seems to me Hyperion have built up a loyal fan base over the years. I won't be writing to Hyperion, for any number of reasons - these were just idle thoughts that I thought might be of some interest to the good people on here. I might come back to the subject in 20 years, when Hyperion are reduced to six releases a year, mainly of Rachmaninov played by a short-skirted glamour-puss, and Sibelius Symphony Cycles conducted by someone you've never heard of, but who is hagiographically photographed as if he has simultaneously found a cure for cancer and solved climate-change. (P.S. I got a copy of the Coles on ebay today, for £4.29.) Previous Message Hmmm... Mr Cronin's statements: "factory-pressed" CD's & "if CD-Rs are no different to CDs, why differentiate... just sell them as CDs?" The above comments lead me to ask if there is such a thing as a "factory-pressed CD"? Maybe all retail CD's are in fact CD-R's anyway? Still think Mr Cronin ought to contact Hyperion and get an official response/explanation. In the meantime, I can't help but be reminded of Klemperer's outburst when told of the convenience of using tape edits above the expense of doing yet another take... "ein Schwindel!!" regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by tuxedo on June 5, 2024, 3:25 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" Well, I decided to conduct some research and as for these 'factory-pressed CDs', the term is rather misleading. They are not, in fact, 'pressed' (as in the days of vinyl) the process is 'injection moulding' and then retail copies are made at high speed from one of several versions of the original. Now, to address Mr Cronin's latest comments: I smiled at the idea of returning in 20 years to find Rachmaninov performed by some short-skirted glamour-puss. Where have you been?? This is already happening. And the thought that Hyperion would still exist in 20 years... the way things are going, that is wishful thinking. Also, the consensus appears to be: just forget about CD-Rs and take a lossless download. The choice is yours. Regarding Nick's concern for durability & sound quality - I don't think SQ is an issue, but durability could be. I have always understood from the very early days of making CDs at home to only burn them at a slow speed to ensure the best possible reproduction, but that won't happen in a commercial environment. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Barry Cronin on June 5, 2024, 5:53 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" Hello again. I know the Rachmaninov/glamour-puss thing is already happening - that was kind of my point. Any new DG release (to take the obvious example) has an aura of tackiness to it, to my eyes, compared to the 'good old days'. I used to have Karajan's 1977 Beethoven Ninth on vinyl back in the day, when I was just starting out discovering classical music, and (foolishly, maybe) I don't think I could have handled the Dead Sea Scrolls with more care and solemnity. Thankfully, so far as reaching my eyes, these DG releases and their ilk have yet to penetrate my ears. As for downloads, lossless or otherwise, it always amuses me when some people (please note, I do not accuse your good self) who bang the drum for this kind of home listening, always do so in a manner that suggests that those of us who are still clinging to our CDs, vinyl, 78s and shellac are Luddites and dinosaurs. I would no more listen to my music via a computer than I would read a book on a Kindle (other devices are available, I believe), or go for a walk via a virtual headset. Finally, and back to CD-Rs, I think my two main concerns are 1) that of durability - but let's face it, they'll probably outlive me; and 2) that of cost, because I can't think Hyperion (and others) are not saving money with this, yet with no discount to the consumer, which might have been a nice gesture. And as no one here seems to be remotely interested one way or the other on the latter point, I can only assume everyone is positively overflowing with disposable income! Regards, Barry. Previous Message Well, I decided to conduct some research and as for these 'factory-pressed CDs', the term is rather misleading. They are not, in fact, 'pressed' (as in the days of vinyl) the process is 'injection moulding' and then retail copies are made at high speed from one of several versions of the original. Now, to address Mr Cronin's latest comments: I smiled at the idea of returning in 20 years to find Rachmaninov performed by some short-skirted glamour-puss. Where have you been?? This is already happening. And the thought that Hyperion would still exist in 20 years... the way things are going, that is wishful thinking. Also, the consensus appears to be: just forget about CD-Rs and take a lossless download. The choice is yours. Regarding Nick's concern for durability & sound quality - I don't think SQ is an issue, but durability could be. I have always understood from the very early days of making CDs at home to only burn them at a slow speed to ensure the best possible reproduction, but that won't happen in a commercial environment. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Ralph Moore on June 5, 2024, 7:14 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" You do indeed have a point about economy, Barry; as a regular reviewer who receives most things gratis, with compliments, and also as an inveterate cheapskate who tends to buy things "pre-owned", I have to remind myself that classical music needs to make a profit for the labels and be affordable to punters. I don't much like downloads, either, but they are invariably considerably cheaper than a physical CD - not that I care that much because, as you infer, I am disgustingly affluent (cough). Previous Message Hello again. I know the Rachmaninov/glamour-puss thing is already happening - that was kind of my point. Any new DG release (to take the obvious example) has an aura of tackiness to it, to my eyes, compared to the 'good old days'. I used to have Karajan's 1977 Beethoven Ninth on vinyl back in the day, when I was just starting out discovering classical music, and (foolishly, maybe) I don't think I could have handled the Dead Sea Scrolls with more care and solemnity. Thankfully, so far as reaching my eyes, these DG releases and their ilk have yet to penetrate my ears. As for downloads, lossless or otherwise, it always amuses me when some people (please note, I do not accuse your good self) who bang the drum for this kind of home listening, always do so in a manner that suggests that those of us who are still clinging to our CDs, vinyl, 78s and shellac are Luddites and dinosaurs. I would no more listen to my music via a computer than I would read a book on a Kindle (other devices are available, I believe), or go for a walk via a virtual headset. Finally, and back to CD-Rs, I think my two main concerns are 1) that of durability - but let's face it, they'll probably outlive me; and 2) that of cost, because I can't think Hyperion (and others) are not saving money with this, yet with no discount to the consumer, which might have been a nice gesture. And as no one here seems to be remotely interested one way or the other on the latter point, I can only assume everyone is positively overflowing with disposable income! Regards, Barry. Previous Message Well, I decided to conduct some research and as for these 'factory-pressed CDs', the term is rather misleading. They are not, in fact, 'pressed' (as in the days of vinyl) the process is 'injection moulding' and then retail copies are made at high speed from one of several versions of the original. Now, to address Mr Cronin's latest comments: I smiled at the idea of returning in 20 years to find Rachmaninov performed by some short-skirted glamour-puss. Where have you been?? This is already happening. And the thought that Hyperion would still exist in 20 years... the way things are going, that is wishful thinking. Also, the consensus appears to be: just forget about CD-Rs and take a lossless download. The choice is yours. Regarding Nick's concern for durability & sound quality - I don't think SQ is an issue, but durability could be. I have always understood from the very early days of making CDs at home to only burn them at a slow speed to ensure the best possible reproduction, but that won't happen in a commercial environment. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by tuxedo on June 6, 2024, 3:07 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" Barry I fully endorse the idea of people retaining their vinyl etc. I didn't fully explain this matter of lossless downloads - the purpose being that once you have the download, burn it (slowly) to a good quality blank CD for future storage and everyday enjoyment. More tech-minded types will use another hard-drive (which has it's own risks). This concept of labels offering a discount - I can actually envisage this happening, in the form of "buy four and get the fifth for half-price". But the time period might be less than you'd like. And don't be fooled into thinking Ralph's final comment was jocular - buying things 'pre-owned' is a well-known indicator of affluence... :-) To move away from downloads and CD-R's someone I was discussing this with told me he had seen an item on an episode of the Antiques Roadshow - one of those rare occasions when that dreadful female had moved out of camera-shot. Incredibly, what he'd seen was a gas-driven gramophone... music was played through several glass tubes containing ignited gas! The resulting sound quality was claimed to be far superior and more truthful than through the normal horn. Apparently. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Barry Cronin on June 6, 2024, 6:54 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" Hello again. I suppose there are four kinds of people when it comes to music. Those who don't like it (apparently they do exist); those who like it casually, as a background; those who love it but don't care how it reaches their ears as long as it sounds good; and those, like me I'm afraid, who love it and want it to sound as good as they can afford but who also want the 'source' to be a thing in itself. One group isn't better than any other, by the way. I am old enough to remember vinyl (the first time) but I was a CD convert from the start and I still think they are one the great inventions. I get downloads and then burning but frankly computers are often more trouble than they are worth - give me a disc, a laser and electricity, and I'm more than happy. I hadn't heard of gas gramophones, but was reminded of gas washing machines. A quick internet search just to reassure myself I hadn't dreamed it, and it turns out they are still a thing. The mind boggles. All the best, Barry. Previous Message Barry I fully endorse the idea of people retaining their vinyl etc. I didn't fully explain this matter of lossless downloads - the purpose being that once you have the download, burn it (slowly) to a good quality blank CD for future storage and everyday enjoyment. More tech-minded types will use another hard-drive (which has it's own risks). This concept of labels offering a discount - I can actually envisage this happening, in the form of "buy four and get the fifth for half-price". But the time period might be less than you'd like. And don't be fooled into thinking Ralph's final comment was jocular - buying things 'pre-owned' is a well-known indicator of affluence... :-) To move away from downloads and CD-R's someone I was discussing this with told me he had seen an item on an episode of the Antiques Roadshow - one of those rare occasions when that dreadful female had moved out of camera-shot. Incredibly, what he'd seen was a gas-driven gramophone... music was played through several glass tubes containing ignited gas! The resulting sound quality was claimed to be far superior and more truthful than through the normal horn. Apparently. regards

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Ralph Moore on June 4, 2024, 5:48 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" tuxedo, I believe the manufacturing process for so-called "factory-pressed" CDs is different from the laser-burning of CD-Rs; apparently the pits on pressed CDs are shaped much more accurately than those created on CD-Rs by the burning laser beam. But if there is no error in either process, we are hardly like to hear any difference and as I said, it is far from clear whether one lasts long than the other.

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Nick Barnard on June 4, 2024, 7:45 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" My knowledge of the technical processes involved fit very neatly onto a postage stamp. However, in principle I have no issue with companies using CD-R. In essence this is the same process that we can all do in the comfort of our own home. The loss of the capacity to mass-produce at speed is replaced by the flexibility very low - even single disc - runs allow. We no longer live in an age when tens of thousands of copies of a particular CD are required (were they ever in the CM field except for the 3 tenors?!) so no business will gear up and carry costs for a capacity that will never be used. The only concern - as Ralph rightly suggests - is whether this process significantly reduces the durability/life span or sound quality of the resulting disc. Previous Message tuxedo, I believe the manufacturing process for so-called "factory-pressed" CDs is different from the laser-burning of CD-Rs; apparently the pits on pressed CDs are shaped much more accurately than those created on CD-Rs by the burning laser beam. But if there is no error in either process, we are hardly like to hear any difference and as I said, it is far from clear whether one lasts long than the other.

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Néstor Castiglione on June 9, 2024, 7:27 pm, in reply to "CD-Rs" Hyperion's use of CD-Rs precede its acquisition by Universal. I believe they started using them around 2020; a few people online reported encountering these as restocks at Berkshire Record Outlet, which didn't (and still doesn't) indicate to the buyer that these discs are CD-Rs. Although I've personally had bad luck with CD-Rs and refuse to buy them, a lot of other listeners report that they are as reliable as factory-pressed CDs. In a bit of interesting timing with your post, I just acquired a clutch of CD-Rs from the estate of a collector—all of them are afflicted with various stages of CD rot. Previous Message Hi. Does anyone - more knowledgeable than me - want to discuss CD-Rs, in particular with reference to Hyperion? That acronym is popping up all over their website recently. Their new releases are not CD-Rs - cf. the new Takacs Qt. disc of Schubert Quartets - but follow the Takacs link and see how many of their 'old' discs are now CD-R only, to give one example. Admittedly, Hyperion are upfront with which of their titles are CD-R and which are not, but if it's cheaper for the company to issue titles in this way (and it must be cheaper or why else do it?), at the very least pass a little of the saving on to the customer?! Perhaps one should just accept Hyperion isn't what it used to be? No longer independent, even though they still proclaim themselves as such on their site, prices increased, and now CD-Rs flooding in. First-world problems, I know, but any thoughts will be welcome.

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Barry Cronin on June 9, 2024, 9:26 pm, in reply to "Re: CD-Rs" On your last point, perhaps that is what the 'R' stands for? Previous Message Hyperion's use of CD-Rs precede its acquisition by Universal. I believe they started using them around 2020; a few people online reported encountering these as restocks at Berkshire Record Outlet, which didn't (and still doesn't) indicate to the buyer that these discs are CD-Rs. Although I've personally had bad luck with CD-Rs and refuse to buy them, a lot of other listeners report that they are as reliable as factory-pressed CDs. In a bit of interesting timing with your post, I just acquired a clutch of CD-Rs from the estate of a collector—all of them are afflicted with various stages of CD rot. Previous Message Hi. Does anyone - more knowledgeable than me - want to discuss CD-Rs, in particular with reference to Hyperion? That acronym is popping up all over their website recently. Their new releases are not CD-Rs - cf. the new Takacs Qt. disc of Schubert Quartets - but follow the Takacs link and see how many of their 'old' discs are now CD-R only, to give one example. Admittedly, Hyperion are upfront with which of their titles are CD-R and which are not, but if it's cheaper for the company to issue titles in this way (and it must be cheaper or why else do it?), at the very least pass a little of the saving on to the customer?! Perhaps one should just accept Hyperion isn't what it used to be? No longer independent, even though they still proclaim themselves as such on their site, prices increased, and now CD-Rs flooding in. First-world problems, I know, but any thoughts will be welcome.

Re: CD-Rs Posted by Nils-Göran Olve on June 10, 2024, 7:31 am, in reply to "CD-Rs" As an amateur, I use two kinds of CD-Rs. The burner I bought in 2002 requires "CD-R Audio" or "CD-R music" discs, and I have not experienced any aging problems with the many hundreds of CDs I have manufactured. Those discs are a bit more expensive and the process slower, including "finalization". In more recent years I have used a computer with an in-built system which takes cheaper "CD-Rs", works quicker, but seems very basic. In the seven years or so that I have used this, I haven't noticed any aging problems. This is by now an old technology, and I expect professional firms using it to know what they do. Organizing short print-runs of CD-Rs is likely to cost considerably more than the average cost of larger-scale manufacturing, so quite apart from all questions about basing prices on cost or "what the market will bear", I would expect more-or-less custom-made CD-Rs to have a higher price-tag than the normal product. Also, dedicated customers seeking them out should be grateful to companies offering them and prepared to pay.

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