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    Re: What if? - a huge chunk of speculation Archived Message

    Posted by Boffer on February 22, 2012, 12:22 am, in reply to "What if? - a huge chunk of speculation"

    The confusing notion for me surrounds. the Cullinan VI diamond, which for all intents and purposes was Queen Alexandra's personal property, as it was purchased separately by Edward VII.

    I don't doubt that this was set into Queen Alexandra's circlet as this information has been given by the Royal Collection.

    However, in 1910 when Queen Mary had the rest of the Cullinan stones set into brooches, this stone was included in these new pieces.

    Which means the stone was removed from Queen Alexandra's regal circlet, and passed to Queen Mary for inclusion in her personal daytime jewels, even though it was essentially a private stone.

    We know that Queen Mary was definitely wearing this stone prior to Queen Alexandra's death as there are numerous pictures of her wearing the Cullinan VI and VIII brooch pinned to her collar.

    I personally don't doubt that Queen Alexandra commissioned her own Regal Circlet because both the Royal Collection's referral to it AND Princess Astrid's mention of it.

    However due to the inclusion of the Cullinan VI stone into her regal circlet, this means Alexandra had her own circlet whilst Queen Consort, when she also had access to Queen Victoria's circlet (I think it complicates matters referring to it as Queen Adelaide's circlet as it was essentially made for Victoria in the 1850s). This circlet was either newly commissioned to include the stone, or she has already commissioned the circlet and it was adapted to include the Cullinan stone, and then adapted again post-1910 when the stone was removed and passed to Queen Mary.

    I believe that there is certainty that Queen Victoria's circlet, the original regal circlet, was the one dismantled for the Queen Mother's crown in 1937 due to the inclusion in both the regal circlet and the Queen Mother's crown of the large 17 carat diamond, which in both pieces is set in the centre of the band, that was given to Queen Victoria by the Sultan of Turkey. The inclusion of this stone in both pieces, is I believe infallible proof that it was Queen Victoria's circlet that was dismantled for the Queen Mother's crown in 1937.

    As to when Queen Alexandra's circlet was commissioned, either during her time as Princess of Wales, or when she was Queen Consort is unclear. As is the question of why she commissioned one. But these are questions that I believe will only ever result in speculation, even by those who have direct access to all the archives. I believe the reasoning behind the decisions are answers lost in time, Queen Mary's detailed notes on pieces, which are the backbone of the Royal Collection's information, only ever contain the necessary facts, as do the ledgers, and royals rarely refer to jewels in their journals. So we can speculate all we want, we will never know the answer.

    I believe the reason why we didn't see Queen Victoria's regal circlet from 1910 (when Queen Mary wore it to the opening of parliament, prior to having her own Crown) to when it was stripped of its stones in 1937 is because Queen Mary had access to her crown's circlet, which also included the Cullinan IV and the Koh-i-Nor, which no doubt suited her tastes more.

    In conclusion, I believe that there definitely were two circlets.

    1) Queen Victoria's Circlet passed to Queen Alexandra, then it passed to Queen Mary, who last wore it in 1910, and was then stripped of it's stone in 1937 for the Queen Mother's crown.

    2) Queen Alexandra commissioned her own circlet. We don't know why or when. It was either made or altered to include the Cullinan VI stone and then altered again in 1910 when this stone was removed. But this was considered Queen Alexandra's personal property and passed to Queen Maud and is now in the Norwegian Collection.

    --Previous Message--
    :
    : Subtitled:
    : Where was the [real] Regal Circlet from 1925
    : [when Queen Alexandra died] to 1937 [when it
    : was stripped] ?
    :
    :
    : OK. Here goes - because for many years I
    : have struggled over the likelihood of two
    : Regal Circlets.
    : I hope you all get a lot of fun out of this
    : and not take it too seriously. Let's treat
    : it as a jolly good mystery yarn.
    :
    : The following takes no account of the fleurs
    : de lis. I really cannot help with that
    : part.
    :
    : I have often read of Queen Alexandra's
    : "generosity".
    : Her family were concerned that she would
    : give away too much. And family stories
    : often gloss over a detail or two to preserve
    : reputation and for discretion's sake.
    :
    : Why did Queen Alexandra have the Regal
    : Circlet altered in 1902 and in what way? I
    : have never read details.
    : It might or might not have been Queen
    : Adelaide's.
    : [The 2 vol The Crown Jewels refers to it in
    : the 1856 Winterhalter (below) as Queen
    : Adelaide's Grand or Regal Diadem or
    : Circlet.]
    :
    : Say Queen Alexandra gave the Queen
    : Adelaide/Victoria Regal Circlet to Maud in
    : 1905 [on Maud becoming Queen] or earlier, or
    : later.
    :
    : Then say Queen Alexandra found the Diamond
    : Diadem too heavy for all State and Grand
    : occasions, so had a replacement made for the
    : Regal Circlet, to wear herself. [Would suit
    : blog story.]
    :
    : Presumably Queen Alexandra wore Cullinan VI
    : on the/her Regal Circlet from 1908
    : [cleaving] to 1925 [her death].
    : Where? On the front cross?
    :
    : Say Queen Mary discovered the Regal Circlet
    : she herself wore for her first State Opening
    : of Parliament in 1911 (below) was not the
    : original, so in 1914 she had her own crown
    : altered [which she did] for the arches to be
    : removable so she could wear her own
    : "regal circlet" from her own
    : crown.
    : [Queen Mary did not ever wear the Regal
    : Circlet again as far as I know.]
    :
    : That could account for Queen Alexandra
    : wearing the Regal Circlet again in her
    : widowhood.
    : That could also account for the Regal
    : Circlet being "sacrificed" in
    : 1937.
    :
    : This speculation does not account for Queen
    : Maud not seen wearing her Malteser until
    : 1929 - only after Queen Alexandra died in
    : 1925.
    : We are told Queen Alexandra died intestate
    : so inheriting cannot enter the scene. The
    : family divided her jewels [Pope-Hennessy].
    : But the [real] Regal Circlet would not have
    : been her personal property.
    :
    : So, where was the [real] Regal Circlet from
    : 1925 [when Queen Alexandra died] to 1937
    : [when it was stripped] ?
    :
    : The band of the Queen Victoria Regal Circlet
    : is described as having large diamonds and
    : small crosses.
    : The empty band in the London Museum caters
    : for cushion shaped diamonds in the band, as
    : used in the crown of Queen Elizabeth (QM).
    : Do you think the [real] Regal Circlet had
    : cushion shaped diamonds in the band?
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :


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